Okay, so, I welcome everyone to this lecture.
It's part of the CGG, Lecture Series with a title,
Paradigmatic, Challenges of Governance.
My name is Anita Engels, I'm a Professor of Sociology.
And it's the center for Globalization and Governance, we do
we discuss typically questions of Governance regarding the following areas.
Welfare inny quality capitalism change and so on.
So most of these areas, represent in some sense,
which it problems. No easy solutions,
very complex challenges in the field of climate change and global
environmental change, we even talk about grand challenges.
So these I that challenges in the social world and they
seem to bring with them,
some paradigmatic challenges for a governance research. One of the
typical trends in research policy is to expect strong,
The assumpting is that research about complex,
we cat problems cannot the analyst ediquitly through the lances of
individual disciplines. As a consequence, there is a lot of pressure
on Universities and other research institutions to organize,
there research across disciplines to create new interdisciplinary,
research groups, clusters or programs.
Some have argued that this is really a parategmatic change in
the way,
that science is organized
Current examples are the German excellence initiative, which explicitly requires,
interdisciplinary cluster proposals. And some colleagues and I,
I involved in the Hamburg cluster of climate research.
So you can not suddest a proposal in this program based
on a single disciplin a beat even if it's really,
really excellent research that you're doing there.
But also internly at the University of Hamburg,
we have this kind of trend
Hey and no, the said is a can you,
the center for as sustainable University,
has just issued a call for research applications,
which need to involve researchers from at least,
three different research areas.
The center for a our system research and sustainability, zen,
has been created to facilitate, new kinds of integrated,
interdisciplinary research. So there seems to be some trend and
we wanted to understand a little bit better,
how this trend comes about,
what it does
to Universities
That means for the future of disciplinery research and someone questions
a long views lines. Professor Jerry Jacobs from the University
of Pentilvania, must have head similar questions in his mind.
Because three years a go he published the book with a very
interesting title in defense of disciplines actually, I have the book here.
Subtitle in the disciplinarity and specialization in the research University.
Now, there are people who specialized in their own field
of research on interdisciplinary Sociology of Science, specialist on interdisciplinarity.
So they do this all the time. Now,
Jerry Jacobs is normally working in different feels of sociological research.
You works on work, employment, family relations,
gender relations, women and society. A mang many other functions,
he is the founding president of a work and family researchers,
network and as a professor of sociology, he there as published extensibly
on these issues. So also in the center for globalization
and governance he's known to many of us for exactly this
area of expertise
So this question of interdisciplinarity, obviously, was a very strong interest.
And I'm sure, he will explain a little bit about
his motivation for the book. I always like it when
the prephest starts with this project begain innocently in ough.
And then it goes on somehow becoming more and more tends.
And I look very much, for what to his presentation
and he is talking in his book and in the presentation
about disciplinarity as a interdisciplinarity as a challenge for the research University,
a topic,
which is very relevant and timely also
for our own strategic
Thinking, in the send, in the CDG,
and for the next perposal in the context of the excellence initiative.
So we have a talk about 45 minutes and then there's time for questions and discussion.
Thank you very much, for excepting the invitation.
Okay, this is one. Thank you. Thank you
very much, it's applicial to be here,
is you he me oK, very could.
I had a... So when you for to be envided,
and I've look forward to having it discussion,
because I'm basically much of my research on the American experience.
And I want to learn from you,
things that are similar in the German model.
As well, things that are different. I also want to
say, thank you for letting me speak in English.
If you come to American, it's that so easy to get an orient,
so everybody's will link to let you speak in German.
So I appreciate that. So here is a plank for
my book. You can buy at on Amazon,
da come
Of course, get it from the universitive Chicago Press.
So one of the first things, I wanted the says that
I'm not against into discuplanarity. One of the things is,
then need a mentioned, and it's a couple of you know,
I working with the group call the work and family,
researchers, network. It's an interdiscuplanary and international organization,
that focus is an work and family issues.
We had a last meeting in Washington DC,
in German the year 2006,
we had 700 oder 7050
From a researchers and scalars from 45 different countries, represented.
So as very international. So if you're interested in these issues,
please joiners, please come net time, please tell your friends. So the my interest,
you want to need that want to me the same,
aber we have my got interested in this topic,
but 10 years to go,
I was the editor of the American social lutch goal review.
So lot of work, high profile journal,
doing my time as editor.
It just so happened that it
was the sent henny all
100 Anniversary of the Founding of Sociaology of the Socialological Sociation in America.
And so the head of the Organization as me,
as all the editors, to do something.
And there are 10 different journals that are published by American social ological sociation.
So none of the other editors, the anything.
But I show do be serious and do it,
you know, do with I'm supposed to do.
Say published the rittle peace, called the ASRs,
greatest hits. Okay. So the idea was,
to do it the most hiddent papers in the history of
the journal
Right now, I can show you software,
you had a button, you're to spead out these,
this information, it's are very easy.
But 10 years ago, it was a tucker little that
of work, we had to check
imcounting double count and try to make sure that the list was accurate.
Everybody want to do know, that everybody must people realize
that they were in underlist. But they want to see,
maybe of different with other list of their teacher with unerlist.
And there is a lot of interest,
I want to mature, I get this correct.
High gave, so lactures about this,
I gave electure a princeton,
we are my friend part
of Margia
Teaches or use that teach. And he had the
most sited paper in the history of the journal.
And so his kully is a very happy for it meet
a come and delecture on this listen.
I show the slide, where he was listed this the
number line and everybody, everybody what like this.
So that was very nice huppered for it. But in that discussion,
people ask, okay, Paul de Margio,
as sited the most, but who sites him?
Es ist seit der Insta-Ciaogie, Rissy sited a hot site of sacialism.
Das ist ein question. So his ideas are
about organizations
In einem Turnset, dass sie sehr influentiell in den Field
of Management researchieren, Business-Organisationen researchieren.
Also seid ihr bei Many 100.000 Leuten, outside of Socialology,
als Wellens been influential inside of Socialology.
Das ist ein interessantes Ding. Wir sind trial look at
the intro-disciplinary in flow of ideas.
Okay. So this is where the book begin. And then,
I started finding at all the stuff about green challenges and
into disciplinary policy and I said,
this is a make any sense to me
But so one thing like to the other in a sittly
and nothing and that are bright in the book.
About this. So hears what I'm hopping to do today.
We're gettered with much as I can. I have
many many slines. The favorite part for me is showing
the empirical results. Because this is a field wear,
people talk about definitions of into discipline heardy,
into disciplinarity, mother descipline heardy, trans disciplinearity,
into disciplinearity,
all these ideas and it's
all very
Confusing, a can we can feelsing.
But not that many people actually started this empirically.
And so I feel the ideas are very important,
but my value added, if you will,
it's I like to say, okay, how many?
It's this the point. The tipical parent is this
the acception and so on. So it love to show
you as many of my empirical results as I can.
But it takes a little wild,
this of lot of pock,
we have to do first of lot of conceptival discussion
That's begins. So I will try to get these points,
as clearly as I can,
because I want to get to my,
I want to get to my graph, so my statistics,
but that's what I love to do.
But here's, and so, and what I really want
to talk to about is the field of biology.
But also see, we have time for them.
I realize it's slayed in the day. And it's only so much,
you've already have a full day of thinking and meeting and tuckling them lecture in them everything.
So I try to keep that in So first of all,
I want to the ecko,
give some examples of an a need a mention. I
think this idea of grand challenges has become a very powerful madel for organizing for a tracking funs and for organizing research.
So I mean, give you some examples of them.
And then I want a raisem questions about where the that makes sense,
is that the best weight it do things?
Okay. So gern, I'm not against that these grand challenges.
I'm just saying well, before we've been all of our money
and grand challenges, let's Pappen und dann gehen wir runter.
About, about with that's the best approach. Maybe for somethings,
yes, maybe for other things, not so much.
But for me, the bottomline is that no matter of
we have greaten challenges is some other approach.
I want to live in the University, I want to
work in the University where disciplines, remains strong.
Because I think disciplines have important value, that needs to be recognized.
And I feel that disciplines have many virtues, that are offen
ignord. Disciplines are dynamic
This suppins or open. And disciplins are broad.
And into disciplinarity, again, has many for choose,
but there also many limitations to into disciplinarity.
And in some cases into disciplinarity can be very,
very specialized, and very, very narrow.
So something, so the idea most people think disciplins or cyload,
disciplins or narrow. And into disciplinarity is broad. But
for me, maybe, it's the opposite some times.
In then finally the question is We are doesn't vitality of
the University come from. There's a come from the bartem
up, or these a come from the tup down.
And maybe, hammer, tiled of the 1960s,
I don't know. But in my world,
the fightality of the University comes from the bartem up.
Individual professors, have ideas, creativity,
and who knows who's going to have the next brilliant idea.
But the next brilliant idea,
usually doesn't come from the provosed or the president
in the University
There's smart people, they good people, they share are Values,
but the ideas are come from the people in the labratorys,
at their computers, talking to carlins.
So the ideas in a dynamic university come from the barem up.
In into disciplinary university, some people feel,
that you need interdisciplinarity, in order to allow the ideas
to come from the barem up.
But I werey that the funding for interdisciplinarity
is going to make everything centralized,
not everything
Move it in that direction, kind of till
the needle in the direction of central controller.
And so I worry that I ranately. And 100 tended consequence
of introdisciplinarity, maybe. Okay, and question, passably.
Is that the university will become more centralized and less creative,
and it will be not a chiefing of the objectives, that the advictors.
Anustly in seriously, and passionately want to a complish?
So that's my goal. If we get to my a graphs terrific,
if not diving you my main message,
we can we can not, we can have a discussion now,
we can go for have a beer, whatever.
I mean, my main points. Okay. If we
have enough time. I would love to talk about the
Biomerica and the generally the live science area.
Because Biology and a live science this has become so big.
And it has impacted so many other feels by engineering,
by our statistics, Neuroscience,
evolutionary by ology
That the organizational questions in the bio medical and life science area.
I think are very different. Denn in other parts of actimia
. So if the bio medical and life sciences area is
a paradigm, if that's the model, for interdisciplinary.
The question is does that model fit, other parts ofs
of that University. Does it's that the humanities?
Does it fit climate change does it fit other parts of
the University
I don't have the full into that. I have some ideas.
I have some questions. I can have to year, what you think.
Okay. Green challenges. Over the last 5 years especially,
but more and more Universities in the Unianited States are getting very excited.
In trying to raise a lot of money,
around the idea of green challenges. So just a very,
very short and incomplete list in the Yanning University.
Have good friends who teach there. 300 million down
or initiative. They are first a example,
the first project is on precision health
That's what they're green challenges to make the health care delivery system,
more effective of individuals, generic and individual experiences.
Princestin, there first are green challenges in the climate change and energy area.
And I was very interested in intrigent, by their idea
of the day are going to try to fully integrate.
The teaching and research missions of the university. Aram this
grand challenge. Now, Princetin is a very big in complicated university.
Most people it princet to do not work and climate change.
So had a going integrate everything around climate change.
I don't know, if this is just propaganda or politics
or if there's serious about this, I have no it.
But other places, that have been in the green challenge as business,
or you minus out of University, watching to state University called,
how do you do to laying?
It's not just one or two examples. In the UK,
there are several colleges acceder one the college of London.
But I willn't very interested in the frances quick institute.
This is 6050 million powers, I should to be million not
1000, 2050 Live-Scientisten. Working and in an in an in as editional supports,
step my sensisters, many more sports step and 2050. And so there are discription again,
these are long and it's not very important to be to all of it,
there trying to self cancer,
hard to see else heimers this is, stroke confections,
all americal challenges, or the world, again,
has to be embitions, because it's a green challenge.
But ins part of their objective in the second crow,
you see, proposals or accepted in any disziplin, but multined
disziplinary proposals or particularly incurge. So the grand challenges,
idea, in intro disziplinary, or very much, very much,
go together. So many of the advicts of interdisziplinary,
beginn by saying, how to hearable disziplins are?
Okay. Na, gerne. I think you can before
into disziplinary with that criticiscing disziplins,
these are logically passible to do those to things.
But the tendency is to stay disziplins are bad into disziplinary
is good
So what's wrong with this Sipplins? There arbitary, they are
suilows. So they only touch to people within the field.
They are at no sentric. And we're need to
have introdisciplinary the break through the narrow minded academic patterns.
Yeah, of course. All this is true. We
still that. Maybe it's true a lot in some fields.
But there's other sites to disciplins that I think our important
I don't know, of you can see this very well,
but donald campbells are very famous, psychologists to had a beautiful diagram.
And his idea was that disciplines or these clusters. And
his main concerned was the space be tween a clusters.
He said, that's the empty space. Those are
the social issues that don't get a tension. So,
climate change would fall as a problem between, what the physicists so word about.
And what what very his people from other disciplines are worry about.
And it's only by having a climate change institute,
that we can get climate change addressed. But it also,
so here that's a wonderful picture of what's missing in science,
again, a quite from his point of you.
The other thing that's wonderful for me,
is his solution, is this bottom ticture,
which is you take every topic in the world,
and you try to have it least of you people,
do every part of it.
And so we cause this the fish scale,
like the part of a fish, you we covered everything.
And that's with the perfect university would look like according
to Donald Cam
Ja. I don't know what this looks like to you.
It kind of looks very born. It looks very level
. Nothings excited of nothings innovative. It looks a little
bit social west to may. Okay, I'm a social
democrat. So I'm not against social west.
But this doesn't seem to be the be exciting dynamic university
that's going to south the problems of the world.
This seems like, I don't know, seems like fish.
Something's verschieden bertes. So what's talk about green challenges?
And let's talk about again, just for me questions
Tausched we as scowers as scientists, come together,
to work on crisis, that may emerged.
So that's take the example of eBowler. Table of the seas,
many people are dieing, something has to be done.
So hooking hope us. I think we need expertise from many fields.
We need people to come up with a vaccine.
We need public health specials, to know how to qualentine,
people who are sick. We need medical entrepolitist, understand,
local customs, mean, what certain practices mean in a local areas,
so that sure working with the local people ons that of against dollar copy.
So the many people who we need to bring together very quickly.
But research is usually for a little bit longer term,
can some we search is crisis, we search some is longer term.
And I age the national institutes of health in united states has funded,
quite a bit a research any boller,
a nate of devide research in this area in today agnostic research,
trying a figured, you really have this the seas their putics,
how can we help the people who are suffering
That scenes hopen we help present the next round of spread,
the next year or five years from now, the next this is.
And then basic research into understanding how,
these the seasons arrise and have the effect people and how
we can understand that underlying, by ology, better.
So from my point of view,
we need to have people who can coordinate in a crisis.
But the crisis coordinators and that researchers,
there public afficials,
there active in the community
The question for me is yes, there's many different people infout,
but we need a cross disciplinary team, that's for me the question.
So some people study the social networks, okay.
Who comes in contact with crew, the terminals who's
going to get sake. Okay. So social network,
people are important to study the steady the process of the seas transmission.
The makes seen people are trying to understeam,
how we got vaccine, that's going to be safe in
effective to this propulation in me viately as soon as passive.
The question is the social that work people need to be
on the same team is the vaccine people and I've say
I don't links now. I mean, the social that
work people should know about what happening in the excene,
probably should know about what other people are doing.
But I don't think you necessarily,
doesn't is not aboused me, there are multi-facted problem,
requires and into disciplinary team to self-that.
So I think of a grand challenge like you ball that,
as being multi-facted. Instead of into disciplinary. And again,
maybe it's just the difference and words,
but I think one leads to a certain
kind of or corganization
Organisation of Folution, and the other leads in a different direction.
Keeps and now, you know, get billioned to trouble,
I'm in the packed out climate change and love a worming,
this is something, you know,
about many of you know about this something.
I know, very little about. But again,
just very simply and economist, might say,
we need a carbon tax or a carbon trade system.
A political scientists, might say, maybe so other solution is,
less of efficient, but it's more politically feasable.
So when you nited state to we have few efficient systemdards.
Few efficient systemdard your cars, the arm more bio companies
to do something. And they require everybody else to do
nothing. So this is easy for politician to paints.
Passing a carbon tax, maybe, maybe more difficult.
I'm sorry, it's see of this is still
Ja, okay. Okay. So, some people
work on Batteries, some people digging to the eyes.
The question is that the people who work on the Batteries
need to go to the nothpole to digging to the eyes.
And my eyensers, oh no,
I this that my early, but it doesn't make sense
to me
Yes, there many aspects of climate change, where we need,
it's new questions, new fields, new combination of skills. But for me,
the question of weather, it's a multiphasited a problem,
doesn't to me, do we really need,
do we really need Teamwork of people with different,
from different fields, sometimes yes, sometimes now,
I don't know.
So, I want to try to take 5 minutes to
talk about what I mean, by a discipline.
Then I want to try to take another 5 minutes to tell you why,
I think, this opens are good.
And then was see we have much time we have
So when I say it disciplin. A lot
of people tried it define it disciplin by their ideals.
What's math a mattext? What's physics? What's biology?
Well, each it these definitions is very fuzzy,
cause the boundaries between fields or continuably shift. Für mich,
I want it define it disciplin social alhodical,
which is to say a disciplin is in organization where,
the same people give it degree,
they teach and dregradue with stay train,
PHD Students and they hire people
Who have the same degree. So my feel the sociology,
I'm not thing, it's the greatest field in the world.
But sociology is a disciplin in mys, my thinking,
because there is a feel the sociology, there's a not a sociation professional
sociation of sociologists, we have sociology departments in America,
you can major instaciology, you can get a master tooker,
you can get a PHD instaciology.
And when we high are sociology professor,
we only high are people with a PHD instacy argue.
You know, 100% of the time,
but omer still time.
So that makes a disciplin
Naja. Disciplins in this view or are useful.
Because there's stable. That means are I can spent sex
years getting in PHD, because I know there's going to
be a job or always the possibility of job,
be after six years.
A discipline enables used a valueway each others work.
A nebles as train next generation. And it helps the
university because more decentralized. Okay. Social just to there
thing, interpolitics to there thing,
for last first to there thing
And it's hard for the centralit ministration to control everybody,
because everybody is a specials in their own.
In their own erious. So this idea that everybody is doing their own thing,
deans on the presidents and the academic at ministrators,
they know that's a certainly like this idea so much.
And they one and know why there are is going to be forward progress,
if everybody is just repeating what they've done in the past.
But I see carpetition at many lovels,
least them new US University.
People can people with one another to become
a star in their field
Special this with in social, you can peace with one
another to become more influential, more prominent.
Disciplins compete with feature other to get more students,
to get more grants, to get more public recognition.
And so, and then when fields, for to far,
they have difficultly and getting recruitments, appointments, grants,
recognition, and the field, the field,
shrinks and false.
So I feel the disciplins have many positive,
even not there insolated to with to gree,
there also
remain open to many sources of pressure
One late the day remain open, is that is constantly ideas coming in from assources.
The idea of a cylow. I can understanding idea of a cylo,
because there's so much published, it's impossible for us,
the keep up, with everything,
that's being done and so many different places.
But it's also very hard for feels to keep ideas out.
Okay, ideas a constant ecaminian, matter for us,
ideas, technics.
The easy is example to show,
this is
with with statistics
Wants a news, the tastic is invented.
It's rapidly adapted. By feels all cross academia.
So there's a statistic in publication research,
call the van history analysis or survival and alysis.
So this I develop by a started estission,
but very quickly it's adapted by the marker first,
by engineers, trying to see whether materials or going to fail over time.
It's adapted by cancer special list,
good they want to see if their treatments in crease people survival times.
So ideals spread with the
university very quickly
Not everybody cappies everything, but the idea that you can have
a completely insolated field is is not me always stick.
So I mean see, I can make this point very quickly.
The way, I defined disciplines, they're very few disciplines.
So the perfect disciplin for this point of view,
is a disciplin were every university has your field.
So math madics, okay. It's impossible to
think about Marion University, with RMS Manics department.
Yeah, I have to have math.
It's fundamental
So a successful dissippoint has to be broad enough.
So that everybody says, we want one it those.
Okay, we have that have one it those.
So here is a graph of disciplines in the United States
. I just can't in the number of universities that offered
the gree enature these fields.
I don't know, it's easy free here been. But I just again,
the point it that to get into details too much,
but every majory university in the United States has to psychology department.
All most everybody has biology mathematics Chemistry
Sociaod, I don't know, why, we not so good.
But most people feel they mean, as sociaology department.
I'm very happy, that this is true. For assify.
Economics is wess. And a reason is sometimes economics is part of business.
And so not every university has a tone economics department,
sometimes it's part of a business school.
But very quickly, after that, you started to get
an optional field. Okay, and on not thing,
there's anything wrong with these fields and just saying,
link westics is a field when in the nited
states its uptional to have a hinguistics department
And so the feels that are two small. And so
they don't can adapt it everywhere. So in general emotion successful
disciplines of very broad, if many special these with them.
Okay. Again, just to empthesize this different between,
I want to make a crew than I'm not credisizing,
any feel that's not a disciplin.
Okay. In the way that you this is by comparing languages.
Okay. I think we're can all. I great that
all line which is a good, all line which is
a foundable, all languages are worldly of study.
But in the United States
Online, which steans out, for far and lank which study and that spanish.
Number two is french. I'm happy to say that number
three is German. And after German, nothing. Okay,
forget about rushen, chines, hindy, swy hearly,
maybe blank, which is that we can think of
his very important and understanding parts of the world.
So, it's not that there's anything wrong with time vietnamise,
but in America, they're not ecademic disciplines.
Because we're not people producing people
with the PHD
Die Teachers Amajor, die Teachers Amasters, die Teachers,
die PHD, die höher sind als die Green, und das fehlt.
Also, es ist nicht die closed System. Genau,
in other countries, maybe type is discipline,
maybe certainly chine is is a discipline in other parts of the world, but not in Amerika.
So, that's that this denktional making. So, America,
the other thing, I wanted a say, before I completely.
Start talking is, the American System is a hybrid system.
It combined different Marvels in many ways. It come by ins teaching a research,
it compliants public and private, it combined government supporten,
which is more German model with Foundation support, business support,
individual, a long night from a university give a grant,
today fund the chair,
if they one of fund the chair into the disciplinary research,
the University will take the body,
maybe tried of find somebody use a profile,
to be a professor of international, into disciplinary research.
But the main way in which Americas hybrid from my purpose
is right
American Universities have departments that I have a discipline.
Discipline indepartment to scoot scoot together. But they also have
interdisciplineary research centers. Okay. So the idea of the
climate center, is very coming in the United States.
Here it special and just tainers special money,
it's relatively know, and it's that relatively coming.
I gain, you're can not in the necessarily beable the sea all of this.
But in the top 25 research Universities in United States.
The average University has at least, has on average 100 interdisciplinary be search centers.
So we been doing into disciplinary for 75 years,
some of the more five years all 10 years old,
we can do a live course and else this of these things,
but that's again be young my.
Objective right here, we're are we here University of Pennsylvania is right in the middle.
It's right the after system for stem for the has 1015 research Universities,
university of Pennsylvania has 105 or Something like that.
If you have a merkel school on your campers,
you have more institutes, more into disclaplanary search centers,
you don't have a merkel school,
you tempt that have this many.
So we have departments that your based in disclaplans,
but we also have research centers.
And I'm like the combination of the two.
And I think it's been very successful. I think that's
part of your american hinter civils has been so successful.
And so for me, the real question is not,
whether we're should have into disclaplanarity.
But how do we can buying into into disclaplanarity with
strong disclans
And such a way, that we facilitate innovation. Wow,
the same time, maintaining the depth in the cut nowity,
that's necessary to have successful disciplines. So I give you
will list of all of fields that are disciplines here some important
fields again your good fields, but detained to be more specialized,
and so they haven't become disciplines and quite the same way.
Demargraphy, in United States is part of socialology,
gerrent hology, sometimes, it wonders to that different places,
sometimes it's in family studies,
sometimes it's in social work
Sometimes it's an America School. All this feels to the colts Steadies,
American Steadies, Africanist Steadies, Women Studies,
those are fields, the don't have their own department.
So they known have a own professors. So your professor of history,
your professor of economics and you teach in Urban Steadies,
but you not, you don't have a point,
you know, pay your not, you know,
it's a program and state of a department.
So, so that's most off,
I want to say, I said,
I'm worry about the shift in power
When you have centralized funding, when you have decisions that
are being made, above the level of a department.
The individual professors tend have less say,
the centralit ministration tends have more say.
Now, understand that like and white. But I think
it moves things in that in that direction. So,
so when you just stop there, and see if,
I have enough time, I have many,
many more slides to show you.
And maybe I think you at a way the work some
of them into the discussion.
Section of the presentation
Das hört einen Schluss an. Okay. So, Lemon,
just give you one. So, as I say,
I love, I ranning things, I love things that's unexpected.
And so one of the things, it's on expected,
is this idea of specialized into disciplinary.
People think of interdisciplinary, is very broad.
People think of into disciplinary is the opposite of specialized.
But a turns that that many things that are into disciplinary,
are very, very, you know, useful important valuable,
I'm that currentisizing the value of research or the ideas.
But there it the interception of two feels
And it's just another special to it just happens the cross to boundaries,
but it's a many, many specialized areas,
that are just not universal. So, penn stayed universes,
that the same is universite pennsil vanion, it's very confusing,
where both located three hours the way from meets other people
of send me may all,
that's posted a good a penn stayed all the time.
So it's this is a different university for now.
It's good, it's public minds private minds I've been lead
there are part of the state sust.
Okay. After 911, penn
stay university for
And there's going to be money in homeland security.
Okay. Yeah, that may say like, a sinical thing.
That's sinical. I want to be save. I want
Germany to be save, everybody wants to be save.
And if you're living in a world, where maybe,
it's not so safe, what's see a free search and
skullship can help make the world safe.
Okay. So they went on a delivered objective to try to
get funding for projects that had to do with homelion security.
And you think that david create a center for how
lion security. And bring all the money together,
just like you bring all the money together for the centers
of excellence in the new journal month
But again, Americas a big place in the money is coming from different sources.
So they didn't end up with one homly and security center.
They didn't end up with two homly and security centers.
They end up with 201 different homly and security centers.
And I didn't do deep research the findness,
it was right on their webpage, it was like,
hey, look at us, we have 201 different centers.
I mean, it is. I went,
I can't it 201, they didn't emprecise that.
But they said, look at all the encredible,
important me search would doing on homly and security.
So this was now secret, as it's permanently displayed.
It's not there an der website anymore,
I don't know my
Ähm... And so cybersecurity, Bio-Terrorism, International-Terrorism,
first responders, nanno, technology,
there's many different aspective sort of homelands security.
And it's each of these interdisciplinary. But it didn't you
know five now which. And many ways it spontered.
It's spontered now. So been sayed has a million centers.
On campers, I could go back to go back to see wear.
Where is pent state on the slist? I don't know
, of there on the slist on not.
But they aviously would have a lot of centers because of
this.
And so
Ähm, There's once in I checkt,
after when right when the book was about to be published,
I went back, and I said, well,
you know, I mentioned penn state by name,
I've the make sure this a still true,
I don't want to the accused of getting my facts wrong.
So I went back in an look,
and I found one most all of the centers.
There's one that this appeared, because there's
no more funding for. And it's a center for into
the study of international terrorson.
Okay,
that center
is going
Alle, ja, die sagen, das ist Social Science.
All the other engineering programs and bioterrism and cyber security,
all those things or all still exists,
but the one that steady, the social problem,
the social aspects of terrism, that one is going.
So another way, it think about this is let's bring everybody thegether.
And what's all work together a social scientists.
For that's we resocial scientists. How long with it take
for us to subdivide into different parts
And my answer it's very quickly. So the quickinst to
two. I wish them well, they're going to have
hundreds of millions of pounds or doubles or doubles, whatever.
Current see, they end up using. But 12050 scientists
can work together. The meetings would be two hong.
And so within their cryptor going to the by themselves into many different things.
So question is, how said different firm, discipline delision,
first is into discipline herry different. So in my building,
the University pensophonie, it was build in the 19970s,
during another period when everybody thought,
with be great to the
into disciplineary
So they would design the building so that was easy for communication,
there was a central age, where everybody could me and talk.
And they said about the offices so that there was an economist and eviginal scientists.
Urban Steadies person in a social ology all next top together.
After five a 10 years, people move themselves back into
their own departments. I got your 15 years,
after the building was builton. It was almost conflictly segargated
again. So there's only at the greater which people can
be first into models of
You know, contact or a collaboration or so on,
they top make sense that them.
Professors is smart people and they feel you at a way
to pursue, they are objectives a scalers.
It's hard to, it's hard to first them into our
into certain parents or behavior. So, again,
I be happy the take questions and if we happy they
go on a not about biology, you know,
kinds of other feels,
but it like to here from you