Welcome everybody, this is the 13th and last lecture in our course on perspectives on
nuclear ordination, held by the Women in Buddhism Study Initiative and the Lemonta
Centre for British Studies at the University of Hamburg. And today, before leaving home
to our lecture, I just wanted to express my gratitude. First of all, to the members of
the Women in Buddhism Study Initiative, that is Lisa Fankard, Petra Kiefer-Puz, and Kamala
Lecture at Somerville, who will be talking today for the support. To all of the lecturers,
who I have so generously given their time and dedication, and to some of them even being
very intensely helping with the discussion in the discussion forum. To all the students
and colleagues for participating, coming to the lecture, and also for the very interesting
discussions we had. And perhaps most importantly, I would like to express my gratitude to the
learning department of the University of Hamburg, without whose technical assistance
has been impossible for us to do this course. And I'm very happy to have here in our virtual
classroom with us Janina Reimers. Can you show yourself to us please? She is a student of our
list, and she has been particularly tutoring and sustaining in this course, because my own
technical abilities are very limited, and she is much better at this than me. Janina, can you
show yourself to us? Actually, I can't, because today, on the last day, my webcam doesn't work,
and I don't seem to be able to fix that. I'm really sorry about that.
But in the name of the whole e-learning department, we'd also like to say thank you
for this great course, and for everything we experienced with you. We had a lot of fun,
and it was just, it was a great semester for us as well. I love you. Well, thank you very much,
and to that, we could show you to the others, but at least you were present and said a few words,
and that was beautiful. So now, I move off, but before I hand over to the new lecture soon,
I just wanted to announce that we are planning a similar course for next year, in the summer
semester, 2015, and I hope you will all be interested in joining us again, and I also
hope that Janina will be there again, trying to help me. And a topic that we have in mind will be
women in Buddhism. So this blog is out a little bit from this very specific focus we had, or
we call in ordination in this course, to the general situation of women in Indian Buddhism,
and we are present in the course of contacting several lectures to see if they are willing to
present, and so I would invite all of you to check the website of the Nomonta Center for
Buddhist Studies, the Women in Buddhism Study Initiative, best thing around the second half of
February, because that will be the registration period again, and as you know, it's necessary to
register for the course ahead. So that's all for now, and it's my pleasure now to hand over to
the new lecture soon. I'd like to introduce her, because you all have already met her two weeks ago
when she gave the lecture on Travenor because of your lawyers. So yeah, I'm off, and you know,
we are with big, shiny ordinations across cultures.
Can you hear me? Well, I can't hear you, so I'll just hope that you can hear me. I'm very happy
to be with you here. We can hear you, but we cannot see you. We can hear you, but we cannot see you.
They've gone to try to find a microphone. I'm here in a monastery in central Taiwan called
Nan Lin Buddhist Institute, and we have about 60 bhiksunis here in this marvelous monastery,
all of them well-educated, well-trained, and very interested in Vinaya. This particular monastery is
famous for Vinaya practice, so I actually tried my lecture out on them this afternoon,
and it was really interesting to see their feedback. They're trying to see it. Can you hear
me okay? It's okay? You're trying to find a microphone. Let's see if this is going to work.
Okay, ning hua. I'd like to start by just giving an overview of Buddhist women's history across
cultures. We have the image of Mahamaya giving birth to the prince Siddhartha, who becomes the
future Buddha. Now, I'm going to use some feminist analysis here in this last segment
to look at representations of women in the Buddhist tradition.
Can you hear me better with this? Can you hear me at all?
Perfect sound. Oh, great. Okay, then I'm going to use this mic. Oh, thanks to the men's for
rounding that up. Okay, so we see here that in this image of Mahamaya, she's giving birth to the
baby of the prince Siddhartha, not to the usual channels, but to her right side, and the baby
comes out completely uncontaminated by the vaginal fluids or anything messy like that.
So this actually goes along with the myths shown of the conception of the prince
through some sort of immaculate conception, I suppose we could say.
Mother Maya's image as being perfectly pure, perfectly worthy of giving birth to a future
Buddha. So here again, we see the Buddha not as a baby as an ordinary baby, but as as a
full fledged Buddha already emerging from her right side.
Here, Mother Maya is also shown taking care of the young prince as he takes his first steps,
that he was very precocious and was able to walk already when he was just
born and to proclaim his future enlightenment. So unfortunately, she disappears from the scene
seven days later. And people have pointed out that it seems it's almost as if she served her
purpose in giving birth to the baby and then off she goes. The next image of Yasodara
is of the prince escaping from the palace at night and leaving his wife and newborn son behind
with just a glance over his shoulder. Of course this gave rise to an article titled,
okay, an article titled, Was the Buddha a Deadbeat Dad? But of course, we know that she was not left
bereft. She had companions in the palace, she had servants, she had her family, and she was able to
manage physically, but we know that she was heartbroken, that her husband left her apparently
without a word. We know that because years later when he returns to visit his father,
not his foster mother apparently or his wife or his child, but to visit his father,
she at first did not want to see him. She was hiding behind a post apparently, but eventually
she became his disciple and eventually took ordination as a nun. So the next image of a
woman that appears in the text, prominently at least, is Sujata, called Radha in some texts.
The woman who offers rice pudding with the Buddha who is undergoing these diligent
austerities and has gotten so emaciated that he can barely meditate anymore.
So she's the one who nourishes him so that he can complete his task of achieving perfect awakening.
He takes the rice pudding, he walks across the Narajana river, sits down under a people tree,
and makes a vow not to arise until he achieves perfect awakening. So she was quite pivotal in
the Buddha's story. After the Buddha's enlightenment, he gathered many, many disciples
of all different socioeconomic backgrounds, including many women. So we have stories in
that of some remarkable women who listen to the teachings, who are moved to practice the teachings,
who take up the path, and eventually, well, now I was interested to hear that there aren't many
references to women as our hearts in the early texts. That was quite disappointing because I
had been under the impression that there were many. So I hope someone will try to look further
in the different renditions of the text to see if we can find. Who says that? This is in an article
by, oh, I'll have to get you the reference. I think it's Petra. Petra, are you with us? No.
Oh, in this image, well, this image, yes, Mahabhajapati is portrayed as
not so much a tea machine, but I think the image comes from Burma. At least I've seen this image
in a temple, in the Burmese temple in Penang. I think that's where I took this photo, actually.
So it's not necessarily that she was a tea machine. She was obviously a bit shoomy, but
here she's shown as a tea machine, as are all the many nuns in the background.
And here, we have an image of Mahabhajapati. So this is rather a remarkable portrait because we
find very few images of Mahabhajapati anywhere in any Buddhist country. I looked for many years and
finally found images in Vietnam. She is very popular in Vietnam, especially in the nunneries,
and there are two various scenarios. This is one, and then there's another where she's shown
giving teachings to five disciples. Well, I'm happy to hear that there are numbers of references
that you know are hearts. Then we should have a debate about that. I'm very happy to hear,
and I'll give you the reference as soon as I return. I can't do everything at once here, but
okay. So Mahabhajapati, of course, was the first bhikshuni in Buddhist history.
The ordination of Buddhist nuns, as we know, began during the Buddhist lifetime,
over 2500 years ago. Mahabhajapati was both his foster mother and his aunt, and
after some initial hesitation, the Buddha affirmed that women had equal potential to
purify their minds and to achieve the fruits of the path. So this affirmation signals the
beginning of the order of Buddhist nuns, the bhikshuni sangha, which flourished under Mahabhajapati's
leadership and continued to exist in India for around 1500 years. That's quite an achievement.
From India, we know that King Ashoka's daughter, Sanghamitra, then took the bhikshuni lineage to
Sri Lanka in the 4th century BCE. And then in the 5th century CE, the Sri Lankan nun,
called Devasakhi in the Chinese text, took the lineage to China from where it spread to
Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, and other countries. Let's see.
Oh, happy to hear that there's a new statue of Mahabhajapati recently commissioned.
And we also find images of her in Venerable Dhammananda's temple in Bangkok.
I've seen them there, many in fact. So then, as Buddhism spread throughout Asia,
the communities of fully ordained bhikshus were established one after the other and flourished.
The communities of nuns were not always established alongside them.
There is no conclusive evidence, for example, that the lineage of full ordination for women
was established in Burma, Cambodia, Laos, Mongolia, Thailand, Russia, or Tibet.
For example, the bhikshuni lineage died out in India, Nepal, and Sri Lanka around the 11th
century, but happily has been reintroduced in the past 20 years with the help of bhikshunis
from Korea and Taiwan. A vibrant international movement, we institute full ordination for
women in all Buddhist societies, is now underway.
Oh, good. I hope we're able to save these comments so that we can go back and reference them later.
According to the the guru dharmas that the Buddha reportedly laid down as Mahabhajapati's price of
admission to the Sangha, included one that requires a dual ordination process. Okay,
so this dual ordination process procedure for nuns seems to derive especially from the H
rudarmas. These rules vary in the different Vinayas schools, as we've learned, and their
historicity is disputed. I hope in the coming years that more people will do research on all
of these topics. This is such an exciting time for a nun to be living in, and I was so happy to share
some of the wonderful work that many of you are doing, and all of the research that's coming out
with the nuns here at the Nanaland, because they are not aware of what's happening
in the other Buddhist traditions, and it's of vital importance to them. Obviously,
they want to learn from all of you. So these rules on the eight guru dharmas stipulate the
nun's dependence on the order of monks and important matters such as ordination, instruction,
reinstatement, despite the fact that nuns communities generally operate independently
of monks. So the community here operates virtually independently, except that
they do have a special place where monks can stay when they come to instruction,
they're constructing a sema, and they're preparing to hold ordinations as well as to
sponsor education, International Buddhist Studies Institute here next to the monastery.
So the first guru dharma, which requires that even the most senior vichuni bow to a brand new
bhikshu, is particularly grating to the sensibilities of women raised with ideals
of gender equity, or equality. Even if it could be established that aha-pajapati agreed to abide by
these rules, it is far from clear why bhikshunis up to the present day should be obligated to follow
them. Now personally, I don't mind bowing to bhikshus, and it doesn't cost anything. It's a good
exercise in humility. But it does look a bit odd in the 21st century, especially in western
societies, to see nuns bowing to monks. As I say, I do so primarily as a strategy because I find
that the monks become very friendly when I bow to them, and so then they become very helpful,
and I think that's a good thing. However, for many women, for many nuns, this could be an obstacle
in their aspiration to practice as a renunciate. So this is one of the questions that I want to
raise, is looking at both sides of the issue of how desirable bhikshuni ordination is, especially
in the present day, especially for women of non-Asian traditions, and also for modern people in
general, for whom some of these conventions may not come naturally. So the rule that nuns must
receive full ordination from both bhikshunis and bhikshus means that in countries where there are
no bhikshunis, women are not able to receive the precepts in their own tradition. In the present
era of improved communications and transportation, however, it's theoretically possible for nuns to
receive ordination from bhikshunis in another tradition. So, for example, I took ordination
in Korea, then I went through the ordination process again in Taiwan in order to observe how
the ordination was organized and how well, actually, I was looking to see how close to the
book, to the text, was the ordination organized. Let's proceed here. Here's the picture of Spangamicha,
who has just landed in Sri Lanka after a treacherous journey by sea and she's carrying
the sapling of the bodhi tree for which she has been long remembered. She was requested by Queen
Anala and her women at court to conduct the full ordination. It's not clear how she gave
the full ordination immediately at that time. That's what the texts say, the particles say,
but we can only assume that they were perhaps living as nuns in preparation for her coming.
But without her, they could not possibly have taken the Sramaneraka precepts or the
Sheik Shimana precepts. So that's something that requires further investigation.
Now, we've already studied these different types of precepts, the Pasaka precepts for the
lay women, the Sramaneraka precepts for the novice nuns. And we mentioned a couple of weeks ago that
the nuns in the Tibetan tradition take actually 36 precepts, which includes the 10 precepts and
more. They are counted, they're further subdivided, and that many of the training precepts for the
Bhikshuni actually are included within their 36 precepts. Next, we have the two-year Sheik Shimana
probationary period and then the Bhikshuni ordination, or Upasampada. The other category
of eight precepts is found in Burma, in Thailand, in Laos, and Cambodia. And also among certain nuns
in the Tibetan tradition, also we find the Gensha, who may have the precepts of the Upasaka, they may
have eight precepts, or they may not have any precepts, they may be simply practicing as a nun,
living as a nun, without ever having had the opportunity to receive precepts.
So, today Buddhist nuns live in many different countries throughout the world, attempting to
abide by codes of monastic discipline formulated in ancient India, by applying at the same time
simultaneously adapting to local etiquette and contemporary cultural mores. Even in the most
traditional Buddhist setting, it is difficult for nuns today to live on alms food and adhere
strictly to all the precepts. And here we see a picture of a woman offering alms to monks in
Laos, in southern Laos, but I was not able to find conclusive evidence that nuns go on the alms
round. I heard some rumors, but I never saw them go for alms round. Then some said, well, they used
to go for alms round, but they don't go anymore. And then someone told me that during certain
meditation courses, they will sort of symbolically go on alms round. So I asked this question, of
course, when I was in Laos, I visited eight different monastic communities of women,
where the nuns all kept eight precepts. And I asked whether they went on bindabat,
and most of them said no, but they did say that they'd heard of such a thing. And I think maybe
by raising the question, I might have encouraged them to go out on alms round. They have enough
food, but the food is generally brought to the monastery, often by their relatives or by
a lay woman who takes it as her special duty and privilege to make sure that the nuns get what they
need to eat. Now in modern times, especially for Western women, the most glaring cultural
discrepancy is the lack of coordination for women in certain Buddhist traditions. Although today,
women's equal potentialities are recognized in virtually every field, male domination persists
in Buddhist societies and is inscribed in mastic law. Age old patriarchal patterns have been
replicated in the Sangha, despite the fact that there is no philosophical justification for male
dominance, either in the Buddhist monastic community or in Buddhist social institutions.
So with a new global ethic of respect for human rights, the legislation of subordinate status for
any group of individuals must be seriously questioned. Now since 1987, Makadita International
Association of Buddhist Women has campaigned continuously for gender equity, especially with
respect to education and ordination. We have avoided using the word equality, since equality
is difficult to achieve in the best events. But inspired by Sakadita's biennial international
conferences and grassroots social activism, Buddhist women in various countries have begun
to work toward making coordination possible and available for women in all Buddhist traditions.
The first breakthrough came, as we learned, in 1988, when the Nepali Nandamawati and two of her
disciples received full ordination in a ceremony conducted at Shilai Temple in Los Angeles.
Some Sri Lankan nuns were also ordained at that time, but as we learned, they were not
supported sufficiently when they returned to Sri Lanka. Some are still Bhikṣinīs today,
I've met them, and some are highly educated, others we were not able to to trap, we're not sure
where they're living now. So we can't assume that they have all disrobed, because I've met them and
several are still in rows. The second breakthrough came in 1996,
when Prasuma Devendra and nine nuns from Sri Lanka became Bhikkhunīs in a ceremony conducted
in Sarnath, India. So another 20 Sri Lankan nuns received full ordination in 1996, that a ceremony
conducted in Bodh Gaya, India. Now I was fortunate to be a witness to all, well, I observed all three
of these ordinations, and I was a witness in the third one, the one in Bodh Gaya. Since then,
Sri Lankan Bhikṣinīs have presided over numerous full ordination ceremonies for hundreds of Sri
Lankan nuns. It's up to 1000 now, and steadily increasing with annual ordinations being held in
Sri Lanka. Nuns from Burma, Indonesia, Thailand, and other countries have also been ordained in
new ceremonies. There's also been some progress toward achieving full ordination for women in
the Tibetan tradition. His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama has repeatedly expressed his support
for the full ordination of women, but states that such a decision must be made by a council of
senior Bhikṣinīs and cannot be taken by him alone. He asked senior Western Bhikṣinīs practicing in
the Tibetan tradition to form a committee, the Committee for Bhikṣinī Ordination in the
Tibetan tradition, to research ways to institute the Bhikṣinī lineage and to answer the objections
of those who are chosen. In accordance with his Holiness, his advice, these nuns, myself included,
and many others have received full ordination in Hong Kong, Korea, Taiwan, Los Angeles, and elsewhere.
But all of us are still concerned to open up opportunities for nuns in the Tibetan tradition
who may find it difficult to travel to foreign countries. The reluctance to institute Bhikṣinī
ordination in the Tibetan tradition primarily revolves around two issues, and I state this
speaking from the Tibetan tradition, but I think it applies to the other countries where
Bhikṣinī ordination is not currently available or where there are still strong objections from
certain people to the full ordination of women. Now the first issue concerns the origins of the
Bhikṣinī lineage practiced in China, Korea, Taiwan, and Vietnam, and whether that lineage has been
transmitted uninterruptedly since the time of Mahapajabhati. It's very, very difficult to find
historical evidence to support that this lineage has indeed continued for such a long period of
time through the vicissitudes of history, and the best I've been able to do was to find
four volumes from Baoha Shan, which is the Renan Vinayet Institute of China,
which document about 500 years of fully ordained people, okay, fully ordained monks,
and we presume nuns, but because the text says jeshu, it means Vinaya master, and it does not
indicate the gender of the Vinaya master, so we could presume that the Vinaya masters that have
been recorded in these books were vicissitudes, but there's no way to be certain about them.
I presented these these books, I found that after finding them in Hong Kong, I presented them to
His Holiness, and they have been in Dharmasala for the last 30 years, but there still seem to be
questions about the lineage, so ascertaining an unbroken lineage throughout 2,500 years
is going to be very difficult. I don't know if we're ever going to be able to manage that.
Now the the second question, or second issue, that objects, those proponents, let's say,
raise concerning the ordination is about the method of conducting the coordination in traditions
that have no living vicissune lineage. The Theravada and Tibetan Buddhist traditions have
preserved the vicissune Vinaya texts, but do not have living vicissune lineages in their own
traditions to conduct ordinations. Therefore, the question is which method of conducting the
vicissune ordination is preferable and most likely to be considered valid. First of all,
an ordination by vicissus alone, and I'm quite happy and interested to hear more of the arguments
for ordination, a valid ordination by vicissus alone that have been raised in this form.
The second option is for the nuns in these traditions to receive ordination from vicisses
and vicissones who all belong to either the Chinese or the Korean or the Vietnamese tradition.
This is the option that has been taken by those of us who have traveled to Korea or Taiwan,
Hong Kong and so forth. The third option is for these nuns to receive ordination from vicisses
and vicissones who belong to different Vinaya traditions. For example, if the Tibetan vicissos
were to conduct an ordination together with vicissones who had been ordained in the Chinese
or Korean or Vietnamese traditions. This third procedure was used to restore the vicissune
sangha in Sri Lanka and after that subsequent ordinations were conducted by the Sri Lankans
and nuns themselves. So it means that, as has been mentioned by other speakers,
as long as the initial ordination is conducted by both vicisses and vicissones,
then within 10 or 12 years the ordination could then be conducted by those
vicissones themselves together with vicissos of their own traditions. So this would be a kind of
interim ordination or an ordination held in a particular way for a certain number of years
and then integrated or assimilated into the tradition. And I think that we could mention
that this is the way the viciss
was revived in Tibet and that history has all been published and I think people are aware of it.
So both Buddhists and feminists around the world have taken an active interest in finding an
equitable solution to this dilemma. Buddhists often claim that women and men have equal
opportunities to achieve liberation but the lack of equal opportunities for women to receive
coordination contradicts this claim. As long as women in some countries lack access to
full ordination they lack the ultimate conditions for fulfilling their liberating potential or their
enlightenment potential. So even if they have equal opportunities in theory it's very difficult
to put that into practice if one does not have adequate food, housing, education,
health care and so forth. So as long as Buddhist women anywhere are deprived of equal opportunities
then Buddhist women overall are deprived. To be consistent Buddhists have no choice but to work
for gender equity and women's religious rights which after all are human rights beginning with
our own traditions. So to learn more about nuns of the Theravada tradition from my own experience
this is a picture of a Vipassana center a community of men's in southern Laos and you can see that
on the wall is a picture of a female donor. So I find this quite remarkable. We see donors painted
into murals in the Dunhuang caves for example but I haven't seen it any in recent history
and so I'm um I'll let you hear um so I was very happy to see that this donor has been honored
for the contributions um in the mural. The same monastery found another mural on the opposite wall
which illustrates the four communities the four quarters of the ideal Buddhist community
which means the bhikshus, bhikshunis, vipassakas and vipassakas. So here you see numbers of the
four communities holding up the Dharma wheel. You have the vipassakas, you have the vipassakas,
you have the bhikshus but no becoming but here we do have a nun. So in Laos the nuns are called
naykau and she is an apricot nun wearing white robes and she didn't quite get her hands on the
wheel but at least she got in the picture. So in this community nuns meditate and chant along with
the monks. Some of them come from families who are donors of the monastery. Spatially however
you can see that there is a difference they are subordinate to the monks spatially and socially.
Then on the platform you see a young man who is taking ordination for the hetai.
He is a lay person but he is up on the platform along with the bhikshus.
Nuns don't seem to resent this. In fact they seem very happy to have a place where they can practice.
They told me that the monks go prep in the pot and bring back whatever they collect and share it
with the nuns. So they seem to have a very harmonious community where they can all get on
with their practice despite the fact that the nuns are not fully ordained.
I'm not sure exactly which one you're referring to. Oh and the mural painting.
Okay let's go back to the mural painting. The third. Now you're right this could be
it's possible. It could be a bhikkhuni and taking a second look yes but that look this bhikkhu also
looks rather prominent and she's not wearing the vest which is not conclusive evidence either way.
She's rather he or she is rather androgynous right?
In any case oh the hips look female. Oh there we go okay so an art historian would have a
good time with this. Yes indeed her hips definitely look female. Okay so maybe bhikkhuni got in the
picture even though real life bhikkhunis have never existed while they are being retrained.
That's a positive sign for this feature isn't it? Okay now here is an example of a precept nuns
and I'm sorry a precept holders they are not nuns they are lay women who postulcants who
postulcants who have taken a precepts for 24 hours. This is during a funeral ceremony.
My friend's boss died and I got to this funeral. The male relatives all became monks for a day
24 hours freshly shaven in order to accumulate merit in order to dedicate it to the deceased.
I didn't see any women who had shaved their heads but I found quite a few of the
female relatives had taken a precepts for 24 hours so that's why they're just in white.
So here are two lau nuns or maekhao. They hold a precepts the one on the right is quite
extraordinary. She went to Thailand, learned Thai, studied meditation for many years then went to
Burma, learned Burmese and English, attended the Buddhist academy in Mandalay and got a bachelor's
degree returned to Laos and is starting a monastery which she hopes will have a school
that will be able to offer Buddhist education for some young women and hopefully attract young
women to become nuns in the future. At the moment because the status of nuns is so low
the eight communities that I visited only had older nuns in them. I did not see any younger nuns.
It was a little encouragement I think it could happen but they need more support and they need
Buddhist education. Not everyone is willing to go Thailand and Burma and learn you know different
languages in order to learn Buddhism so we need more less emphasis on building multi-million
dollar temples and more emphasis on educating Buddhists so that they can maintain their own
cultural traditions in my opinion. Anyway here we see the first two nuns that Venerable
Damananda spoke about who took shamanic precepts but were forced to disrobe so the Bhikshuni
ordination was not available in Thailand until very recently. This is the Mahapajapati
College for Women in Northeastern Thailand. It was published 15 years ago and is offering
education to Buddhist nuns and laywomen. They also admit foreign students. Here are three
nuns from Bangladesh that we sent to study them. They learned Thai and they have graduated.
Two have gone on to get master's degrees to our back in Bangladesh teaching and then this one
is currently completing her bachelor's degree and planning to go on for a master's degree.
So we can see that with just a little bit of encouragement and support
women are willing to become nuns and are willing and are anxious to learn Buddhism
and are emerging as teachers. So
here is a nun from Shantiya Shok which is a rather controversial monastic organization
that keeps the Vinaya very strictly. They don't wear shoes. They don't carry umbrellas.
The nuns are highly educated and they keep 10 precepts. This nun was a professor of physics
at UC Riverside before becoming a nun. So their community is highly respected by their supporters
but it seemed to have posed something of a threat to the monastic establishment in
Thailand and their founder Bodhirak, known as Bodhirak, was forcibly disrobed. The nuns were
arrested and eventually released after a three-year court case but they do not wear either the robes
of the Bhikkhuni or the robes of the Meeji. They opted for the gray robes that you see here.
Here are the nuns of Burma. They're known as Teilishin as we learned. They are eight
precept holders. I had heard that some have nine or ten precepts but Professor Kawanami
says that they have eight and she also confirmed that they have many opportunities for study
which I think is a wonderful thing and many have taken advantages of these opportunities and
attained highest degrees in Pali and Abigaima and so forth. I look forward to an opportunity
to visit Burma and meet with the nuns and talk with them personally.
The nuns collect uncooked rights and donations, can accept donations of money since they don't
have that precept of handle money. This of course means they have more time cooking,
shopping and cleaning up and so forth but they have enough to eat. Even if many of the donations
come from their own relatives, they are managing in their communities and they have many young
girls joining their communities. Also in Burma, the phenomenon of temporary ordination means that
girls who work in offices and so forth will go for meditation retreats for a month each year
and live as months for a year or possibly even more. In Burma, it's possible to get a month off
each year, not bad, to go for meditation retreat. Possibly this leads to women deciding that they
like meditation and wanting to pursue the monastic life but we don't have the statistics on that.
This photo is from the ordination, Bhikshini ordination held at the Chinese monastery in
Bodh Gaya in 1998. 132 people were ordained in this ordination including over 30 from Sri Lanka,
most of whom were the heads of their monasteries. So we've discussed a bit the problem with young
nuns wishing to become Bhikshunis when their teachers are not fully ordained. If a young
a junior takes full ordination and she then out in the monastic formulation for teacher, which is
awkward, who bows to whom for example. She should bow to her teacher but when she becomes a Bhikshuni
her teacher is supposed to bow to her and so in these monasteries where the senior nuns took
Bhikshuni ordination, then we don't have that problem. And we also have monasteries in Sri Lanka
where Bhikkhunis and 10 preset nuns, that's the Sri Lamantas, live side by side harmoniously. I
did a couple of years ago a monastery where two sisters, both living in the monastery,
one was the albus, was the Bhikkhuni, and her sister was Dr. Sri Lamantas and they seem to be
getting on just fine. So that means that there will be different options even within one monastery.
I just wanted to mention that because Dr. Salgado mentioned the problem that there's some conflicts
or tensions perhaps between those who have received the Bhikkhuni ordination and those
who are witnessing as well as the Sri Lamantas. In time probably this will be of itself as Bhikkhuni
ordination becomes more widely available and the older generation passes on, we shall see.
And here are the nuns of Nepal. In the center is then a Vadamawati. She is the most timely
respected nun in Nepal, especially in the Nawar community, the Theravada Buddhist community in the
Kathmandu Valley. She escaped, ran away from home at the age of 13, spent 13 years in Burma studying,
achieved the Acharya degree and returned to Nepal where she was really key in reviving Theravada
Buddhism in Kathmandu Valley but also throughout Nepal. So she has monasteries both in Kathmandu
and in Numbini. She hosted the Sakadita conference in 2000. She has 400 ordained disciples,
200 of whom are Bhikkhunis. She went to Los Angeles and there received ordination with two
of her disciples. Other of her disciples were ordained in China.
I'm sorry. And I learned from her disciples that before they went to China, she was some of her
Dharma brothers in Burma who said, if you allow your disciples to go to China to receive Bhikkhuni
ordination, you will never be able to speak to your teacher again. She sent them anyway.
And she sent her disciples also to the ordination in Bogaya. She's fearless and she's still in
Kathmandu. We've just been able to send someone to interview her. Her disciples have gone on to
establish monasteries throughout the Kathmandu Valley in places where Buddhism was really nearly
extinct. So nuns can be so valuable in helping to preserve Buddhism and to disseminate Buddhism
because they have time. Not that lay women couldn't do this, of course they can,
but lay women, as we know, have many other responsibilities and don't always have
sufficient time for study and practice as much as they would like to. So the nuns can spend all of
their time on their monastic duties to teaching and studying and so forth. So here are some
examples you have. You may also notice in this picture Chingin Doma was called the Singing Nun.
She has dressed as a nun since she was a child and she holds five precepts. So she falls in a category
that is not a traditional category. And in 2007, at the congress on the status of women in Buddhism,
she became the spokesperson for the nuns of the Tibetan tradition. Because she speaks
English with an American accent, she was delegated to translate. However, the views that she expressed
may or may not have represented the views of all of the Tibetan nuns and Himalayan nuns who were
gathered there. Because she is not a shamanerica, she may or may not be interested in becoming
a premier dean herself. Therefore, I think that we really need to talk more to the nuns themselves,
those who are shamanericas, who are living in monasteries. And when we do, we find that many
of them are very interested in receiving bhikshuni ordination. Yes, these nuns are bhikshunis,
and they're dressed in the pink robes because their teacher Venerable Damawati
studied in Burma. And when they came back, when she returned to Burma, it was still at a time when
Buddhism had previously been outlawed, the monks had fled to India. It was a Hindu kingdom,
the Buddhists were oppressed. And so when she returned from Burma, she decided to continue to
wear the robes that she had worn in Burma. I know that at least one of her disciples dresses in
brown robes, Venerable Damawati Vijayana, who is the bhikshuni. So I think that the nuns have the
option to wear the brown robes if they should wish to do so. So these things just sort of become
accepted as tradition. And you'll see that garment is orange, and that the shawl that they wear is
brown. So it's a sort of a median solution, a middle way solution to the question of proper attire.
Recently, last year I was in Indonesia, and as it happened, a monk there had been to Burma
and had brought back a whole many sets of pinked robes for the nuns in Indonesia.
He was formerly a Muslim who had converted to Buddhism, and Vinklin in English has become a
popular teacher in Indonesia. But I had to raise the question with him and say, you know, the pink
really isn't the perfect color for nuns because it's considered a very attractive color. And that
since the nuns in Indonesia are already wearing the orange and rust colored robes, why in the world
would he want to integrate robes? So he did not accept my reason, but I did put forth my plea three
times, and at least I hope he began to think about this. It caused quite a controversy in Indonesia.
About once the nuns have achieved the right to wear the yellow robe, the upper robe or the brown
robe, why would they then revert to wearing? Well, it's worn by eight percent nuns. So since we're
having our Sakaditha conference in Indonesia next June, these days, I'm sure that this question will
be raised again and we'll have more lively conversations about it.
Here is an ordination of Vinklinings held in Northern California
and some very prominent nuns, including Venerable Tata Mokaher, Venerable Adimuta,
and this was witnessed, attended by some very highly respected bhikkhus, such as
Bhikkhu Pasmanal, and so forth, the Bhikkhu Kuna Ratana. So these ordinations are accepted. The
nuns are supported primarily by Thai disciples, but they are getting their requisites and they're
able to live as bhikkinis without handling money in their communities. So it shows that
it is possible even in the United States. Before we all used to joke that we would get arrested
if we went for alms in the United States, but now actually they've proved us wrong.
I don't think any of them got arrested. Moving to the Mahayana tradition.
Here's my ordination in Taiwan. I told you that I went through the ordination again
without taking the precepts again because I wanted to observe how ordination was conducted.
In fact, this was my ordination in Korea, which I attended accidentally. I was headed for Taiwan
where the famous Nanshayun Vashir had helped me to register for the ordination and signed on as
my bhikshini preceptor, and then on the way had discovered that a full ordination was being held
in Korea that would be conducted by bhikkhus and bhikkhus. So when I had the opportunity to take it
from both bhikshis and bhikshinis, I definitely wanted to do that. And the reason was that I knew
that when I returned to Dansal, where I'd been studying for many years, the first question I
would be asked was, well, who ordained you? And they would be expecting me to say bhikkhus and
om, because most of the ordinations at that time were conducted by bhikkhus and om. So if I could
say that I was ordained by bhikkhus and bhikkhus, this ordination would have a better chance of
acceptance in the Tibetan community. And so I was happy to get this opportunity. It was the first
time that a dual ordination had been held in Korea in probably 100 years. And this is also an English
bhikshini named Jampa, who'd been ordained in the Tibetan tradition. She'd then been ordained as a
bhikkunini in Hong Kong, but only by bhikkhus. So she wanted to receive the dual ordination,
and they allowed her to do that. So the training in Korea, of course, requires six years. From the
time first you go in as a hinjal, you go in as a sort of cooks helper. You do all the work around
the monastery for six months. And that training is so difficult that most people can't, can't
hack it and drop out. So if you can make it to that six month period, a probationary period,
then you are eligible to go and take the novice ordination. The novice ordinations are held in
in national ordinations, large ordinations, to keep the standards high at the same time as the
bhikkunini ordinations. But after taking the shamaneric ordination, you're required to train
in the monastery very strictly for at least six years. And I mean, you don't step one toe over
the boundary of the monastery limits with boundaries without permission, or it's sayana.
And you really have to keep the precepts very, very well, in addition to the monastic rules that are
laid down by that particular monastery. So only after six years of strenuous training,
does anyone make it to the ordination, the dual ordination platform. I was very fortunate in
that I was introduced to the ordination by a highly respected bhikkhu, Pangjang Kusangsen,
who was the leading Zen master of the 20th century in Korea. He gave me my name,
and he put me on the bus with six with some 30, 40 monks to take the ordination. And one of the
precept masters was from that monastery, Songfangsa, and he was in the line where we had to
give our credentials. And when I arrived, they asked my name, then they asked who ordained you.
And I said, the 16th Gebutangma, and the bhikkhu was not very open to my, he wondered who this was,
and what right did I have to take ordination. But fortunately, the bhikkhu who was standing
beside him, Bonsong-sen, sort of vouched for me and said, it's okay, let her go. So I had been
a shamanic for five years by that point. But I think without his intervention, I might not have
been allowed to receive the bhikkhu-ni ordination. I was very happy to meet him again last year in
Korea. Now here's an ordination in Taiwan, and I had a hard time finding photos of an ordination
in Taiwan, because generally, if they're not to the public, but this is Venerable's
shanghyun and some of his disciples, bhikkhu and bhikkhu-ni's. Ordinations are held annually in Taiwan
before they were nationalized. And there was, at the time when I observed the ordination in 1982,
at Haiming Temple, it was, there was only one per year given. But now they're being
offered at various monasteries around the country. The standards are still extremely high.
The nuns get a month of strenuous training. The disciplinary standards among, especially
among the generation under 60, are very, very high, and in some over 60. And so these nuns then
all get an equal kind of training. And they also study the precepts during ordination. They learn
how to stand, how to sit, how to bow, how to wear the bowels, how to eat with the bowels in the
Taiwanese way, which comes from China. And many of them have university degrees. So the big rush
for ordination that we saw in the 1990s is over. But hundreds of young women, Haiming educated,
young women are still joining the monasteries here in Taiwan. This is an ordination in China.
And we'll see that lots of men and women are becoming ordained in China. I cannot
vouch for the standards because I have not observed an ordination there. I do know from
a friend who was ordained as a big boom in China in 1982 that at his ordination,
the discipline was extremely strict. They had to kneel for hours on stone. And it was really tough.
So I would like to observe one, actually. I met a nun who had recently conducted a
full ordination for nuns. Nuns only 360 men at her temple. And I can say that all of the nuns
that I met in China work very well to support. And they are very careful to observe the Vinaya
procedures as they're set forth in the Vinaya texts. Here the nuns are registering the ordination.
And here they are doing, these are the ordination masters. You can tell from the red robes.
And they're holding the sitting false stencil. Here's an ordination, a picture of an ordination
held in 2013, taken at the city of 10,000 Buddhas in Northern California. As you see,
it says three-fold platform pre-transmission commemoration. So in the Chinese tradition,
it's customary to offer both the Sramaneraka precepts and the Bhikkhuni precepts and the
Bodhisattva precepts, all within a certain period of time, which is somewhere between 30 days and
60 days, depending on the person who hosts the ordination. The list of temples that are vying
to host the ordination is very long. So I think you have to wait for another 100 years to get
the opportunity. But they are held in this way. Even if someone has been a Sramaneraka for many
years, she would then take the precepts again in this triple platform ordination. It's not
absolutely required that one take the Bodhisattva precepts. I've heard of people declining to take
the Bodhisattva precepts during their Bhikkhuni ordination. They seem to be able to make
arrangements for that. By the way, in China, in the ordination, they no longer do the three
burns on the head. In Taiwan, three burns are still allowed. But in China, they're not. I think
that came from the government. Oh, a correction here. About one-third of our support comes from
the Thai community. Thank you for clarifying. Oh, I'm sorry, one-quarter. One-quarter of our
support comes from the Thai community. And the rest of the support comes from other people.
Now, this picture was taken at the triple platform ordination held at Chilai in 1988.
It was headed by the Pokhanshan organization. But pictures from China were
involved, were included. I know that because I had the opportunity to meet
is a very famous Buddhist master in China today. He told me that as a young man, he had studied
in Tibet. For three years, he'd studied mamram and other texts. He had spoken, been able to speak
to them at that time, but had forgotten it. Later on, he was imprisoned for having been to Tibet and
so forth. But he was released, and he's now teaching at a nunnery at Udaishan. This is a nunnery,
a training institute for nuns, which I visited two years ago. They have over 800 nuns, a very
strict discipline. And he is an excellent teacher for them. They have many other teachers as well.
I might mention that they're also surveillance campers at that temple. But anyway, so my time
is here. So here is a picture of that ordination at Chilai temple.
Well, Ayakema was ordained for one, and a number of well known nuns,
including as mentioned the Nepali nuns and the Sri Lankan nuns.
This is the ordination in 1998 in Bo Gaya, for it was 132 nuns being ordained, including
over 30 Sri Lankan nuns. This picture you saw earlier. I was a witness at this ordination,
and Tipton should also witness. There was also a Korean, a Bikuni witness.
There were monks of various traditions involved in the ordination. This is the, these are the
Bikshini Krisep masters. But among the Bikshu Krisep masters, there were Thai,
Ladaki, and Korean masters too, I believe. So it was an international organization.
Now this is not the first time that an international ordination has been held,
because we know that the city of 10,000 Buddhas, which is renowned for its strict discipline,
has also been conducting international ordinations for a long time. They've included
Theravada monks in their ordinations too, so that's not terribly unusual.
Are, I'd like to, are you sure that they are single ordinations?
I will seek different information, but let's check it out. Let's check it out. Okay, so these,
this is the way the, the Taiwanese Hokkon Shan community conducted the ordination.
One very special point was that at this ordination, nuns from the community in central India,
often called Dalits, or the oppressed, received ordination. And as I recall, there were 18 of them
Yu-jen Lee has written about this in her article in the book, Innovative Buddhist
Women's Swimming Against Stream. They arrived in Bodh Gaya, Epson Barefoot, and in Rags,
but they were determined to take fiction ordination. So we went and got them new robes
and some rubber slippers, and they were so happy, and they did very well during ordination,
observing all of the discipline. And as far as I know, they are all still, the Kunis,
two of them have passed away, but, and other nuns have in the meantime also become the Kunis,
and Venamotata Loka has also conducted trainings for nuns in India, so that is a wonderful
contribution. The, the Dalit community, now I'm going to use the word Dalit, though I know that
some people in this community would prefer not to use the word Dalit. Well, but then there are
others who don't like the term new Buddhists either, because they say they were Buddhists all along,
that they've been Buddhists from the beginning, and it was because they did not accept the idea
of caste that they have been outcasted over many centuries. When we first heard this theory, some
of us thought it sounded pretty weird, but are pretty wild, I should say. But recent anthropological
research has been coming up with some evidence that actually these claims may be true,
that the Buddhist communities of India, in Maharashtra and Orissa and so forth,
may have been gone, may in fact have been Buddhist continuously for many centuries.
So in any case, they're very proud of their Buddhist identity, somewhere over 12 million now,
and they would really like to have some of you come and teach Buddhism in their communities.
Here's a photo of an ordination held in Singapore recently. So in earlier years,
the monks and nuns from Singapore would help to travel to Hong Kong or Taiwan to
receive ordination. So it's worthy of note that ordinations are being held in Singapore itself,
in their own language and so forth. In fact, I'm not sure exactly what language they would use,
I'd like to learn more. I can see some Koreans were involved in ordination, and at least one
person in Tibetan wrote, so here's another Korean. So I'll have to check it out. I just found
this photo on the internet, actually. I'd like to learn more about that. Here, back to Korea,
is a photo of my teacher, Hyeun Seung-min, who was a Zen master, but she was also the leading
Bikuni master on my ordination, and her story will be published soon in a new book on eminent
Buddhist women. Here's a photo of the education that the Bikunis in Korea received. They have
actually had many opportunities. They struggled very hard in the beginning after the war to
re-establish their monasteries, and they've done remarkable work. The Bikunis in Korea number
about equally with monks, and their educational standards are very high. There are quite a few
who have received PhDs, either in Japan or in Korea or in the United States, and are now serving
as professors in Buddhist universities. I highly respect it. I'd like to mention regarding the first
rudana that the last time I was in Korea, two or three years ago, I noticed that there is a trend
for when the Bikunis go to bow to the Bikus, the young Bikus will often bow back to them.
So this I have not seen in any other country, and I thought it was quite remarkable, and I was told
that it's not unusual. What I witnessed actually happens rather a lot among open-minded young Bikus.
So here are Korean nuns attending Sakadita conferences. They've been sent not unusual,
good, I'm very glad to hear that, because the Korean nuns have been, despite the language
problem, have been attending the Sakadita conferences for many years, and we do have
Korean translation provided for them, a very fine Korean translation team equivalent to our
remarkable Taiwan translation team and our remarkable Vietnamese translation team.
So in order to reach the grassroots, because not everyone, as we know, has
educational opportunities. Millions of Buddhist women are still illiterate,
living in poverty, living in political oppression and so forth, so we want to be optimistic,
but we also don't want to forget that there's still much work to be done. Now here's an altar
from Vietnam. I was in a temple and I saw this altar, and I was really pleased to see that
the Vietnamese Buddhists honor their Bikuni elders. This is not an isolated example in every
Bikuni temple I visited. I saw such an altar commemorating great nuns of the past.
In Vietnam, there are many princesses in the records who became Bikunis, so this is taken
from a tombstone of a Bikuni who became, who was, as a princess in Pui.
This was a notable ordination in Vietnam from 1957 and 1958, remarkable because many of these
nuns became leaders of the Bikuni community in Vietnam. They had a very difficult time during
the war years. They had to survive by, actually, they were not allowed to stay in their monasteries
often, or if they stayed in their monasteries, they were not allowed to accept donations from
the Bikuni community, so they started making incense, making tofu, making New Year's candies,
and so forth. Many of the monasteries still continue this tradition to demonstrate self-sufficiency
to the Bikuni community that they're willing to work to support themselves. During those years,
they would continue their practices. Many were required to work in the fields,
but they would get up at four in the morning and come four to six in the morning,
then go to the fields and work all day, and return at night, and meditate again from eight
to ten in the evening. So in these ways, you can see that they accepted and weathered great
hardships in order to preserve the Bikuni community in Vietnam. The nun in the foreground
is the leading nun of North Vietnam, and this is a community in South Vietnam in Ho Chi Minh City.
I notice here that the young acolytes, we could call them acolytes, have shaved half of their hair,
so they're allowed to stay in the monastery. They go to school in the daytime, and then they serve
in the temple, and if they work out well, then they're allowed to become schwamenerikas.
So there's a rigorous testing period. After the war years, women in Vietnam experienced such great,
terrible sufferings that they wanted to join the monasteries in droves by the thousands,
and eventually they had to impose an educational requirement of 12th grade graduation in order to
limit the numbers. So that was a necessity, a sort of financial necessity, but it also helped
to raise the standards of education among nuns in Vietnam. Now, today there are three Buddhist
monasticities in Taiwan. Here's a monastery built by and for nuns. There's another training
institute there by very high standards of the clan. There are both Zen monasteries and
on top of practice monasteries in Vietnam. There are also some Charavada monasteries.
Okay, now the cursor is not moving. Venerable, I think I'm going to need your help.
Can you please move to the next slide? Time's up.
Work the silver. Can you hear me?
Oh, okay. No problem. Oh, great. Okay, so here's men's up in Himalayas. I think we lost the two
slides, but they're debating philosophy. There's some of them are even learning how to move
computers. Well, next slide, please. Okay. I wanted to take up several questions,
but I'm sorry to see that our time is really running out. I wanted to take up the question
in particular about whether or not nuns in these countries are interested in receiving
the kuni ordination. Now, to my mind, whether one takes coordination or not is a personal
question. It's a personal matter of whether one wants to devote their life to monastic practice.
Even among my own nuns in India, I have never encouraged them or much less required them to
take coordination. I know that they're waiting to take ordination with his soul in his Dalai Lama.
They know, I've let them know that the Taiwanese Buddhist community would be happy to fly them to
Taiwan to participate in the kuni ordination here. So far, they have not availed themselves
without opportunity. So they want to take ordination within their own tradition from
their own bhikṣis. I think this is also true in the Theravada countries. As we've seen from what
happened in Sri Lanka, the nuns preferred to take ordination from bhikṣis of their own tradition,
and to consider themselves Theravada bhikṣis rather than Dangu bhikṣis, even if those were
the precepts that might have been transmitted during the first few ordinations. So these
pictures are taken at the Sakadita Conference in Korea. You can see the very multinational
that nuns' different orders and different countries are meditating together, counting
together, developing friendships together, interrupting each other on the path.
And I think we already saw this next slide. And so these transnational networks, I think,
are highly important. And I would refute the claim that Western feminist bhikṣinis are trying to
tuck the nuns into something they don't want. They didn't have education, and many didn't have
sufficient food years ago. But in helping them to, oh, let's see, okay. Okay, so this is the
committee on bhikkhuni ordination in the Tibetan tradition that was appointed by His Holiness
six years ago. He gave us the prize money that he'd gotten from Switzerland by 50,000
Swiss francs, asked us to meet and to figure out a way to bring the bhikkhuni ordination into the
Tibetan tradition. We've met about six or seven times now, and we've presented our findings.
Our research continues. We're waiting for a report from the committee of bhikkhuni scholars,
Tibetan bhikkhuni scholars in Dharasala to see what they've found. We heard that about half of
them support bhikkhuni ordination, and about half of them are opposed. So I'm not sure how, I hope
they find a middle way. Questions? Do we have some questions? I know that much of this information
is already familiar to many of you, but now I have more comments.
But I'd be happy to answer any questions since our time is still limited.
Another client.
Okay, so it's been suggested that western women, especially western feminists, are to blame for
trying to pressure nuns in various countries into taking the bhikkhuni ordination that they do not
want. But I think here we can't separate the debates about women renunciants from issues of
power, and the fact that the bhikkhus are still in control of the instruments of ordination.
And we need that in order to hold a recognized ordination ceremony. Therefore, they are in a
position of power, and the bhikkhunis are in an unequal power relationship, not to mention those
who are still shamanirakas. So we find that nuns in the Tibetan tradition, for example, are being
told by their teachers that 10 precepts are enough for them. There's no reason for them to
take the bhikkhuni ordination. And here the implication is that, well, if they eat solid
food after 12 o'clock, they're not worthy of becoming a bhikshuni. However, we know that
many Tibetan bhikkhus also takes solid food after noon. It's supposed to be if you're sick or if
you're traveling, or if it disturbs your meditation, they have three caveats. So
it's also said that bhikkhuni ordination isn't necessary for these women. But if it's necessary
or important for bhikkhus, why shouldn't it be important for bhikkhun for nuns? We must recognize
that Buddhist nuns across cultures are not monolithic. We can see that from the presentations,
even within one tradition. The nuns have many different perspectives, different lifestyles,
different levels of education, different aspirations. We want to honor that. And the
Western women are definitely not trying to touch anyone and see anything. Reports that
Sakadita held an ordination in Taiwan are false. It's been reported that Sakadita organized an
ordination in Taiwan for money. But this is impossible because we've never organized an
ordination at all. I think that the concerns that the international community has about the
living conditions of nuns is warranted. Because I've just been talking with the Taiwan medical
team that went to Sangonicha to do medical checks on my own nuns that I've been helping for
25 years. And they found that they're all malnourished, except for three. All were suffering
from malnutrition. So how can someone practice, and this is with support, with Western support,
and still, they're not getting adequate nutrition. So how can one practice well, and study well,
if they are not getting the nutrition they need, if they don't have the health care that they need,
they don't have the proper shelter and so forth. The nuns that I showed you in living in Tibet the
other day, and living in wooden boxes with plastic on top, I mean, how can they possibly achieve
enlightenment? I know they're going for it, but I would like to see them have a little bit better
living conditions. And if that means that we're criticized for having some colonialist agenda,
well, I think that they talk to the nuns. The nuns will see it differently. The nuns are very happy
with the support that they receive from their friends in different communities,
in different countries. So that's one thing I wanted to take up.
The suggestion that nuns should not be concerned about their own welfare,
that they should concentrate on meditation. I think that's a bit disingenuous.
Okay.
Okay. You see, suggesting that nuns should not be concerned about their own physical welfare,
because that's a worldly matter. Well, I think that borders on intimidation. And also the idea
that women shouldn't, that the nuns should not aspire to becoming ordination because they're
unworthy. That's also a kind of intimidation. I think that we should instead encourage the nuns,
rather than sort of deliberately trying to prevent them from acquiring the knowledge and the
requisite and the ordination that they need in order to fulfill their potential as human beings.
Right? So,
today, the standards of nuns everywhere is improving. And I think that that's a really
good thing. I hope that they will continue to improve. In Laos and Cambodia, the nuns are
in dire need of support on all levels. Okay, here we have a fantastic tendency
of ordained nuns to question skeptically the legitimacy of ordinations of others
that perhaps have less ideal conditions or ritual adherence. Well, yes, I have noticed
that nuns who are very strict about the Vinaya may sometimes imply that others who
are not as strict are somehow well, and it's just left as a dot, dot, dot. The legitimacy of
ordinations, certain ordinations, yes, I have heard ordinations that certain monasteries be
regarded more highly than monasteries held at other ordinations at other monasteries. I think
that for many years, the ordinations in Taiwan were regarded more highly than the ordinations
held in Hong Kong. And that was especially because the ordinations in Hong Kong usually only
lasted for five days. Whereas the ordinations in Taiwan lasted for at least one month,
with lots of training and so forth. The ordination procedure itself
usually only lasts for a few hours anyway. So I don't know that that could be used to disqualify
or to actually question the legitimacy of an ordination. The ordinations held in Hong Kong
are legitimate, as far as we know, insofar as they were conducted by 10 bhus, and they were
recognized by the Hong Kong Buddhist Association and so forth. But I know that there was a preference
for ordinations that offered more in-depth training. Okay, one group that had suffered from
this was the 1996 ordination batch. Well, okay, I was also a witness to the 1996 ordination in
Sarnam. And it was clear that they there were nuns there, but it was not clear that they were
offering that they were involved in the dual ordination process. So yes, there were 10
Korean bhikkhunis there, and not vouch that they conducted the bhikkhuni in part of the ordination,
as it would have been in the dual ordination. But there were definitely 10 bhikkhus there,
10 bhikkhus who were conducting the ordination. And so it should be considered legitimate. Yes,
definitely. And that group was also, they were real pioneers. I'm not sure who would be
questioning the legitimacy, but as we know from Professor Salvada's talk in her book,
that there is some tension between different groups who may be trying to
maybe even monopolize the ordination process in Sri Lanka. I'm always in favor of diversity,
since that's what I heard them lately. They did, yes, I did not see them officiating.
There might have been some part of the ordination that I did not
witness, but that's some to the best of my knowledge. Okay, so
we know that once ordination is available and sanctioned by the nuns' teachers, many nuns are
happy to receive the ordination. I think that if the nuns in Dharamsala, throughout India and
Nepal, had the opportunity to take ordination with His Holiness with Dalai Lama, virtually
all of them would. I think then they would get over any reluctance and feelings of inadequacy
that they may be feeling. As long as it were sanctioned by His Holiness, if he gave them the
go-ahead, even if he gave the go-ahead to other monks to give the ordination, I think that they
would all take the opportunity to receive ordination. So I think it's definitely demeaning
to represent nuns as opportunists who are only seeking access to ordination in order to gain
certain privileges. We never hear that accusation leveled against monks, so why would someone that
nuns are only taking ordination in order to get some special benefits for themselves that I find
that rather outrageous. So the concern for the nuns' welfare is really important when we look back
to 1987 on the conditions of nuns at that time when many of the nuns were illiterate, they were
hungry, they were well-nourished, and so forth. The fact that ordinations have been facilitated
in many different countries has worked to raise the status of nuns in general, including their
educational opportunities, their respect from the lay community, the support that they get
from the lay community, it's had many positive side effects for the nuns overall.
So I believe that if the Upasampada is liberating for monks, it should be liberating for nuns as well.
So of course it's true that women can shave their heads and put on robes and practice the
dharma very well without taking the Upasampada, but I think that it's also true as Vannevar
and Nailayo has shown in his recent article that Maha Pajabati was not content with this
median stuff. She herself, our foremother, was the one who said, well, you know, that's not enough.
She advocated for ordination and she was the trendsetter. She was the standard, the model for
becoming ordination henceforth, and therefore, since the Buddha himself gave the ordination,
and since Maha Pajabati herself took the ordination and modeled what women can do,
then I think definitely we should have those opportunities available to anyone who wishes
to take advantage of them, which is not to say everyone. I've always advocated for quality of
quantity. Okay, now a question from a different angle. How do you think it is,
how do you think it is well to approach and care for the princess and
the quadratic paradigm as institutions?
Well, if someone is dissuaded from taking bhikkhuni ordination because of the
eight uradhamas, maybe their resolve, their determination is not strong enough.
That's one possible answer to this question. In some ordinations, the eight uradhamas are
actually recited, but I'm not certain that people are aware, are completely always aware,
of what they have been recited or what they entail. Of course, it's a historical impossibility to
rewrite the Vinaya texts, we can't do them. The eight uradhamas are in the texts, we can't just
simply delete them, we have to deal with them, but we can reinterpret them. So as I say, this
process of bowing the bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, bowing to each other in Korea, I think is a lovely
option for modern people, and maybe that's one way, or modern Asian, Western people.
I think that we can explain the historical circumstances, that the Buddha made it pretty
clear that the renunciants of other traditions did not bow to nuns, and considering the patriarchal
structures of the time, it would have appeared very odd. It might not appear so odd. I mean,
here in Taiwan, sometimes men bow to me, not bhikkhus, but laymen, and I know that throughout
Taiwan, laymen bow to bhikkhus, and it's not regarded as unusual at all. Some men don't
bow to bhikkhus, and that's their prerogative. And you're right, that the uradhamas are not
legally speaking rules, but only recommendations. I like them. Red lights are just recommendations
on the word, but here we can take the uradhamas. I think the matter of respect is very important
as Buddhism goes to the West. I wouldn't want us to relinquish respect among monastics altogether.
I hope that respect will continue, because in our culture, as we know, civility is in decline
in general in society, and we definitely in the monastic community want to help
encourage civility, respect, and so forth. Okay, so good. Thank you for clarifying.
Well, good. In Nepal, the uradhamas are not part of the recognition form of procedure, but I'm glad
to see that clarification. In fact, I'm so happy with all of the clarifications that have been made
during this lecture series. I think it's really vitally important. I hope that the speakers and
listeners will follow up further research, and will put their research into writing so that we'll
have more and more to work with. We'll be able to clarify some major misconceptions about what it
means to be a nun, about what the precepts for the Bhikkhunis are, what's required, what's expected,
and that we can build stronger and stronger Bhikkhuni communities. I hope you'll all be able
to visit the monastery where I am right now, and see how the accommodation, the sort of
way that they have managed to keep the dhana very, very strictly, and yet make certain accommodations
for modern life, and for Taiwanese culture, and so forth. Very interesting to study,
and to meet with them, and dialogue with them. So, how many more minutes do we have? Do we have
time for more questions? Any more questions? Well, I would like to encourage all of you who
are ordained to please observe your precepts as carefully as possible. I hope that all of us will
practice them in our own ways. For those of you who are considering ordination, I hope that this
series has been helpful for you, so that you know what you're getting into, and what your options
are. I hope that those of you who are not ordained, and do not plan on becoming ordained, I would like
to thank you for your support, for those of you, for those of us who are attempting to follow this
ancient path, and to make it available to more people in the present day, as an alternative,
a possible alternative to the crazy insane lifestyle that we see in many cities today,
and the problem that lifestyle brings. The monastics, by focusing their time and energy
on Buddhist teachings, are doing, we're doing our best to try to provide answers of counseling,
guidance to those who wish to follow this ancient and wonderful tradition. I think that it has much
to offer people solutions for psychological problems, for the environment, for animal rights,
for so many, in so many ways. The Buddhist teachings are so beneficial, so helpful,
so useful, and so practical, and so relevant to people's lives today. So let us support each
other in the various ways that we wish to practice. I think that we should be very careful not to
criticize or condemn one another for our paintings, which are, of course, speaking for myself alone,
and our many, but on the, to the contrary, that we should try to encourage and support each other
on this wonderful path to liberation. Thanks very much to Venerable, and not only to this wonderful
team who have made this opportunity possible, but we apologize for any shortcomings, and I
personally like to apologize for shortcomings in my own talks and research, and hope to learn from
all of you. Thank you very, very much. May you all be well, may you all be peaceful, may you all be
happy, may we all proceed. I'll take step by step toward liberation and the people awakening.
you