Welcome everybody and this is the second lecture in my series on
Purification, Ethics and Karma in Early Buddhist Discourse. Before I start to
get into the actual lecture there was a few minor things I wanted to say on the
blogs. One thing is that the way the blogs are being displayed it kind of the
website only seems to hold five blogs and so when for every new entry we
create a separate blog then those blogs that have been posted earlier they kind
of disappear. Therefore I would like to suggest that for lecture two and future
lectures I open a single blog for the whole lecture and any comments or ideas
or suggestions or questions you make you all post them under the same blog.
Then it's easy for all of us to see if something new has happened and we don't
have to start searching around for the earlier entries. And the second thing if
you are on the website under home and settings you can upload a picture of
yourself. I personally find it very nice if with the blog entries there's also a
picture it kind of makes the thing more personal. Yeah so now I am coming to the
actual lecture first briefly I want to review what we did last time and then I
get into the next discourses. So last time I gave a short introduction on the
Madyama Agama collection in general and then we had a look at the first two
Madyama Agama discourses. Regarding my general introduction on the web page I
have uploaded an article on the Madyama Agama. In case you would like to get
more information on the Madyama Agama you could just download that article
and read it. Now in the blog there have been a number of very useful and
interesting comments and some of them I reply directly but others I would like to
take up now for the benefit of everyone. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to
paste this into the chat see if that works. Yes so we are first looking again
at Madyama Agama number one discourse at those seven qualities and I have them
here on the blackboard. The first quality was good knowledge of the Buddhist
teachings and there was a very beautiful comment made by Linda Galash that I would
like to just share with all of you for the benefit of those who only get the audio
file. I'm now going to read this. She says the suttas are the cornerstone of my
practice. Reading and contemplating a sutta is a part of my daily practice as
meditation and the attempt to put what I read and experience in meditation into
the context of daily life. Not reading the suttas is like trying to get through
a labyrinth blindfolded. Every step of the way presents an obstacle. The suttas
help on overcome the obstacles with eyes wide open there are still more than
enough difficulties. Relevance of course has many facets and various levels but
at the simplest level it just means reading a sutta and contemplating the
message. Putting what one has read and thinks one has understood into the
context of the moment. Like every good text one can read the suttas again and
again and with each reading one leans a tiny bit more of the message. This
coupled with experience and meditation helps open the door of understanding a
wee bit further. Yeah I think that gives us a very good feeling why good
knowledge of the Buddhist teaching knowledge of the suttas and those other
types of texts we had there last time are right at the top of that listing of
seven qualities. Then there was another comment I like to share with you. It
goes on the whole set of seven qualities. As you can see on the blackboard and you
might remember there was a listing of seven qualities. The first was to have
good knowledge of the teachings. Then the second to understand the meaning of what
others say. Then to know the proper time for or during meditation. You had some
slight differences there between the parallel versions. Then to be restrained
in behavior or else to be moderate with requisites. Also there we had some
differences. To know one's own strength and weakness. To be able to adopt one's
behavior and to know how to progress to what is superior. Now Manfred Wiesberger
and Andrea Feller they have been working out a little bit more correlations of
these seven qualities. The original idea was to correlate them with the
eightfold noble path and with the partomies. I have added to that a little
bit because the partomies are not found in the early discourses.
The whole idea that there are certain qualities that we have to develop now
so that in some very distant time in the future we will be able to walk the
path to awakening is not really found in the earliest strata of text. To use
the partomies is very meaningful from a practical perspective but in my personal
feeling to understand the discourse it is important that we always stay within
the same historical level that we use not the commentaries, later ideas but we
use the ideas from the discourses itself to understand the discourses. This is why
I have edited that entry a little bit. So if we look at these seven qualities what
we have the first one I think we already said that is that good knowledge of the
teaching is somewhat similar to right view. Then Manfred Wiesberger and Andrea
Feller they suggest that the second quality to know the meaning is to be
able to see beyond words, seeing the needs and intentions of others, seeing
the implications of what is said and done and they see a relationship
between this and the second path factor of right intention. Then the next one to
know oneself yeah actually it comes in a slight it's I think it's the Pali
sequence doesn't matter. To know oneself this is number five in the Madhyama
realistic self-evaluation without self-depreciation or hybrids, knowing and
minding one's own business, working from where one is. Right mindfulness and right
effort are the two path factors that they see particularly related to this.
Then to know restraint and moderation this is quality number four in the
Madhyama Agama listing. Understanding that happiness is not to be found in
material things, how true. Understanding the limitation of sense experience and
they see this as related to right intention and right mindfulness. To know
the time that is something I should also do and that is the number three in the
Madhyama Agama. Time to talk, time to be silent, time to look inward, time to look
outward, to act, to observe and they see this as right mindfulness, right
concentration but also right speech and right action. Now we come to knowing
assemblies. I have it here number quality number six able to adopt one's behavior.
Being able to move freely and comfortably around different strata and
subcultures in a society and adapt one's behavior accordingly. Right speech,
right action, right livelihood. And to know distinctions this is in my listing of the
Madhyama Agama is number seven. Know how to progress to what is superior. The
ability to recognize individual strength and weaknesses, knowing that the person
has many different aspects, right view and right mindfulness. And then I think a
very nice comment from Andrea Fowler again. She says, I often find in
reflecting on these lists that as one cultivates one factor all the others are
also pulled along for the ride. So I think this very interesting correlation
that has been offered to us here. I think we should not take it too literal that it
means only this particular path factor and none others is relevant but just as
a as some way of giving us a practical feeling for these different aspects. Yeah
I'm not sure if I should stop here now and give time for some questions or if I
may go on to one more point that certainly will call up a number of
questions. Maybe I just have a short look if there's anybody who would like to say
or write something then please type in the chat box. And at some point we might
also try this direct speaking with the hand raising which on an earlier start
we tried it didn't work so well but I think we should from time to time also
try that out. And I also wanted to say for those of you who are not too
comfortable with using English that I'm happy if you're writing in German or and
then anyway I have to repeat what you write in the chat box for the oral record
so I could always translate that. But as there seems to be no questions then I go
to the next comment. This is by Chanida Jantra Sri Salai and it's about the two
qualities where we have some differences between the Madhyama Agama
and the Angutra Nikaya version that was about knowing time and knowing restraint.
And Chanida points out that the Madhyama Agama Sutra seems to be more focused on
meditative practice than the Angutra Nikaya does. The monks are taught to be
mindful at all times and in all activities. And I found this a very
pertinent comment because in my comparative studies I found a lot of
variations between suttas but very rarely only significant differences in
terms of content or way of presentation. But one of the differences is the
nuance of difference that I found and now I'm going to go into this a little
more. I hope you can see the PDF that is moving up. If anything doesn't work then
please let me know. One of the relatively few market differences I found
between Pali discourses in particular the Madhyama Nikaya which was what I
studied and Chinese and other palates is that there seems to be a slightly
stronger emphasis on meditation in general in Chinese Agamas compared to
Pali discourses. So I am now going to give you a few examples of this. The
first example they all come from the Madhyama Nikaya. The first example is the
Chulagusingasuta. This is a discourse which describes the monk Anuruddha and to
other monks how they are living together in harmony. And the description is very
beautiful. It shows how they help each other and are very harmonious. There's an
image that says that they blend like milk and butter and each of them is
putting his own wishes at the back and is really concerned about doing things
in such a way that the others are fine with it. And part of their conduct is
that they usually don't really talk to each other. So even if they have to like
they're describing that for example the water the drinking water needs to be
filled they just give signs to each other by hand without starting to talk
because of such a thing. But every five days they meet and have a Dharma
discussion. The Madhyama Agama parallel in the description of how they clean up
after they have had their meal also explicitly says that these monks then
take their sitting mats and go to a secluded place to meditate. And it says
when they meet every five days they either meditate together in silence or
else discuss the Dharma. So we find in the description I mean it's very
clear that these monks are deeply meditating practitioners but we find in
the Madhyama Agama description this meditative flavor becomes just a little
bit more prominent. My next example is the Dheganaka Sutta. This is a discourse
that reports how Sariputta attained full awakening. Sariputta is one of the two
achieved disciples of the Buddha. There's quite a number of them but these two
Sariputta and Mahamogallana are perhaps the most famous and outstanding ones. And he
was listening to a discourse given by the Buddha to a wanderer, a paribhajika by the
name of Dheganaka. And we have a number of parallels to this discourse in the
two Samyukta Agamas. We have two translations of the Samyukta Agama, one
complete one and one partial one. And they seem to stem from slightly different
but related transmissions. We have a Sanskrit fragments of this discourse and
we have a version in the Mula Sarvastivada Vinayana. This part is
preserved in Tibetan. And each of these parallel versions they do not only
describe that Sariputta became an arahant while he was listening to the
discourse but they indicate that after listening to the discourse he actually
meditated. He contemplated on impermanence and after that he became an
arahant. So here again we find that there's a slightly stronger meditative
flavor. The Dhammachadhyasutta is another discourse in the Majimani Kaya and it
describes a situation where King Pasinadi is traveling with two of his
attendants, two courtiers. And they put up in the same room so the king can see
what they these two are doing during the night. And according to the Pali account
the two the whole night are discussing the Dharma. From other discourses we know
that these two attained stream entry and they passed away as once returners. So
they would have had good reason to discuss the Dharma. Now the Manyama Agama
parallel they spend the first part of the night in silent meditation. In this
case however we find that we also have a version of this discourse in the Mula
Sarvastivada Vinaya and this time preserved in Chinese and in Tibetan. And
it agrees with the Pali version since it reports that the two courtiers were
discussing, they were discussing the qualities of the Buddha, the Dharma and
the Sangha. The Dhananjani Sutta, it reports that the Brahmin Dhananjani was
reborn in the Brahma heaven after getting an instruction by Sariputta on
the Brahma viharas. The Brahma viharas are the four divine abodes of loving
kindness, compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity. The Manyama Agama parallel
which otherwise is fairly similar explicitly says that he actually
practiced these. He practiced these Brahma viharas and he overcome
sensuality and there on he was reborn in the Brahma world. Again we find there's
just a more meditation flavor to it. It's not just listening to the discourse,
also he practices. The Upakilesa Sutta describes a visit paid by the Buddha to
a monk by the name of Bhagav. And in the Pali version the Buddha basically he
comes to the monk and asks him are you doing fine and do you have no problem to
get arms food and Bhagav says I'm fine and I have no problems to get arm food.
But in the Manyama Agama parallel the Buddha asked him are you living at ease
and Bhagav answers by giving a whole description of his meditation practice
how he is energetically practicing developing concentration and practicing
the factors leading to awakening. None of these is found in the Pali version. And
my last example is from the Nandakovara Sutta. Here the monk Nandaka who has just
been told by the Buddha that he should be giving a teaching to the nuns and so
he goes the next morning collects arms in town eats them and then he goes to
the nuns quarters to give a teaching. Here we have a parallel in the Samyukta
Agama preserved in Chinese and again in the Moolam Savastivadavinaya this time
Chinese and Tibetan. And these versions say that after he had gotten his arms
and taken his meal before he goes to the nunnery he sits for some time in
meditation. Yeah that was a rather long comment by me on a short indication
given by Chaneda Jantra Sri Salai that I think this is a persistent characteristic
that in the Pali discourses these are just nuances I mean but still there is
one gets a stronger meditative flavor let me say it like that when one reads
the Manyama Agama discourse compared to when one reads the Pali version. Yeah I
again want to stop for a moment and see if there are any comments or questions.
Thank you.
So here's a comment by Linda. There are so many general comments about meditating in the
Majimani Kaya. One often reads monks meditate meditate before it is too late etc nothing
really specific but often. Yeah definitely I'm certainly not saying that meditation is
absent from the Pali discourses or from the Majimani Kaya and meditation is
throughout central in all of the early discourses. My point was mainly based on
on this topic of what differences we get when we compare parallel versions and there are no
major differences we suddenly discover there was never any for noble truth or the Buddha told us
to enjoy sensuality in order to go to any of this but there are some slight nuances and it is
difficult for us to know which is the more original one and I have very few of these real
tendencies that I can actually show up after doing eight years of comparative studies with
the whole Majimani Kaya 400 parallels I mean I have gone through a lot of material but one of
those few tendencies that I did notice is precisely what has been mentioned and what I
myself didn't notice when we were discussing the Majima Agama number one last time but what
fortunately Chaneda Jantra Sri Salai has brought to our notice that there is just a slight nuance
towards making meditation somewhat more explicit so there's no there's there's no question that say
Pali discourses are against meditation and the other side favor of meditation or something that
it's just these are just very slight nuances that I'm I'm just highlighting yeah yeah is it
possible Andrew asked the question is it possible the school where the Majima Agama Chinese Majima
Agama is from was more into meditation as a good question the thing is the Sarvastivadin school
which as far as we know is the school that transmitted the Chinese Majima Agama there
seems to they seem to have a strong trend towards meditation that is true and yeah but still the
Majima Agama is not really it's not really from a school yeah it's not it's not it's not a product
of a school or a a product of Chinese Buddhism or whatever it is actually a a a a a a a collection
that has been orally transmitted and so the school athletes I mean it's definitely a good point that
somehow those who transmitted the collection had maybe a stronger interest in meditation and so it
was more natural for them to emphasize these things or keep them in mind as they transmit the
discourses yeah I think that is the way we can we can put it good point so there is honor and is
there a learning or some sort of academic consensus on which of the two is earlier and
if I understand you correctly you mean the which of the two collections is earlier can can you in
some way indicate which of the two you mean do you mean the Majima Agama compared to the Majima
Kaya collection or the tool you mean the two leanings in the sense of either giving emphasis
to meditation or giving emphasis giving less emphasis to meditation hmm I personally think
that at the earliest stage meditation was very central this is the flavor that we get from the
early discourses and I would think that in time this sometimes was lost out of sight but and then
in other times it also emerged again so we sometimes have a kind of a revival of the meditative
tradition and the meditation in the earlier stages of Buddhism as far as we can tell from
the text it seems to be closely related to some degree of learning in the sense that the development
of insight and tranquility in the early discourse is not so much a question of but practicing a
particular technique but rather of deepening certain key aspects of the Dharma one is learned
through meditative practice but in the Theravada tradition we know that by the time when the
discourses were handed down to Sri Lanka there was a problem to ensure their transmission and
there was a historical decision taken to give emphasis to learning over practice with the
argument that if we maintain the transmission of the discourses alive future generations will have
access to the Dharma and be able to develop their practice if we emphasize just on our own practice
we might get somewhere but the future is lost but this tradition decision was taken historically at
a time too late according to my understanding to be still able to influence the discourses
yeah so if there's no more questions we can come to the result of these seven qualities
there's a comment by Andrea Fella that I would like to share with you so she says perhaps maybe
first just recollect there was a slight difference in the presentation of the results of these seven
qualities where we find that the Madhyama Agama version says that somebody who has these seven
qualities gains joy and progresses to awakening but the Anguttara version says someone who has
these seven qualities becomes worthy of support and a source of merit now Andrea Fella she says
regarding the different perspective of the two versions of the sutta with the Madhyama Agama being
more focused on qualities that lead towards liberation and the Anguttara Nikaya being focused
on qualities that make one a beneficial field of merit I am curious if perhaps the collection the
suttas appear in might partly account for this difference in focus the Anguttara Nikaya has
quite a number of suttas that seem to be relevant to householders at the time of the Buddha was the
teaching about practicing for the sake of merit rather than for liberation more directed towards
householders than monastics yeah this is a very very interesting aspect to look at there are there
are again these are again nuances regarding the four collections and the emphasis given in them
respectively before I go into that I think I need to generally state there is no clear-cut
distinction this is only for lay people this is only for monks and there has been in the past the
idea by some scholars that lay people are only given talks on merits that's it and the path to
liberation is only for monastics and this is not correct there are quite a number of seriously and
intensively practicing lay disciples who reach various stages of awakening and I have recently
published a paper on the anata pinnikavada sutta in Majimani Kaya where I tried to show this that
lay people were also given rather deep instructions on insight nevertheless there is a clear difference
in their respective interests that is when somebody gets really inspired in the discourses
by the buddhist teachings and wants to do all-out practice then he or she will naturally chose the
monastic path because that was at that time the most suitable and meaningful way of practicing
therefore when lay people are the audience it seems that with some exceptions the interest
is more towards the more worldly aspects of the dharma which are also there and also important
such as the making of merit so we can expect from a discourse given to an audience of
householders that topics such as merits will be more prominent than from a discourse given to
monastics but again these are just just nuances now on the four collections what I have for you
is one there is a an indication given in a text called the vinayavibhajha this is from the
sarvastivada tradition and preserved in chinese and it makes certain statements on each of the
four collections I have rearranged the sequence so it corresponds to the sequence in which we are
familiar with the four collections from the Pali canon so it tells us that the durga the
collection of long discourses is mainly to confront outsiders
the middle collection offers profound doctrines for intelligent people
and is therefore employed by those under training
the samyukta this is a collection that goes according to topics the durga is just a very
long discourses and the madhyama or madhyama the middle long discourses the samyukta collection
sets forth various meditations and is therefore made use of by meditators
and the kotarigoda or anguttara collection this is a collection that collects discourses that have
a number in common in discourses that has items number one i two three four up to eleven this is
just another way of organizing a collection of discourses the kotarika collection is for the
sake of gods and men and is therefore used by preachers if we look at the collections now in
the Pali canon i i i i find this this this comment is is quite meaningful in the diga in
the collection of long discourses we get these very long discourses which are often given to
those who are not yet buddhist and a scholar by the name of joey manet has documented this
and says that the long collection is mainly for i don't know if i can pronounce this properly in
english now proselyting it means for the conversion purposes for introducing those who
are new to the teaching to the teaching of the buddha and to the superiority of the buddha
then the middle long discourses
uh there's a another german scholar who has pointed out that words like vinaya vinetti
or security to train are very often found in the middle long discourses and we have in fact a
number of discourses that are entirely on vinaya matters and my own personal feeling is also when
somebody is interested in intensive study i recommend the middle long discourses that
really gives a very good grounding in those things that for those who already consider themselves
buddhist or wanting to walk the buddhist path gives them an overview of the central aspects
and the samyutta i remember when bhikkhu bodhi was translating the samyutta i once asked him
what he felt about it and he said that after the magima gives a first overview the samyutta
is like a selection of close close-ups obviously because it sets certain themes like on mindfulness
on on the eightfold noble path or whatever then the discourses they're collected are
really condensed on one topic and show it from all different kind of perspectives
but in this way it is really useful for using the teachings for meditation purposes
and in the ekotturika or anguttara collection i found
personally by research and this is i have this right at the bottom that i found three times as
many discourses related to annata pindika the famous householder who donated jita's growth to
the buddha then in all the other three nikayas together so that the anguttara or enkotturika is
a is a is a collection where we get quite a number of different things but there is a lot for lay
people there and there's another thing from the Pali commentary tradition this is from the
sumangala vilasini the commentary on the diga nikaya it indicates that when the buddha had passed
away no not when the buddha had passed away and the discourses were being distributed that chief
disciples or their followers some of them had already passed away were responsible for the
transmission of each collection so it says the diga the collection of long discourses was given
to ananda and his followers and ananda is the the way he is being described in the discourses he's
a very devotional person he's some very devoted to the buddha the greatness of the buddha and this
is the theme of the diga of the long collections if we want to give it a theme and then the middle
long discourses were given to sariputta sariputta is one of the two chief disciples i mentioned
earlier and he is he stands specifically for wisdom he was outstanding in wisdom and one
discourse indicates that he was in particular responsible for leading disciples to stream
entry and yeah if you ask me which of the four collections you want for that purpose i would
probably point out for the middle long discourses it really sets sets you on the path
then for the samyutta collection according to this commentary explanation the maha kasapa and his
disciples were responsible maha kasapa is a monk in the thought world of early buddhism who stands
for austerity and intensive practice i think he's really he's really intense we can say
and the samyutta is also intense and really goes for one subject and really goes through with it
the last angutta collection is associated with Venerable anuruddha there i am not entirely clear
on this relationship anuruddha was also one of the chief disciples he was particularly famous for a
supernatural ability see which allowed him to see things happening in heaven and in other realms
perhaps we should understand that this ability gave him the material to preach on these issues
which again might have been of considerable interest for laity but i think monks were also
interested in that so with the last one i am not entirely sure but anyway if we look at this
we see there is
from the perspective of the savasivaya tradition from the perspective of the teravaya tradition
there are different flavors to these four collections and so the reply i would like to
give to that comment made by andrea fella is that yes the thing that we noticed fits
those flavors to some extent the madhyama agama compared to the anguttara
there is one more comment also on these seven
on the results of these seven this is by kucharski pyotr
just go back to the seven so we can see it better and he says i'd like to comment on
different perspectives in madhyama agama and anguttarani kaya on the results rising from
development of the seven qualities from my understanding it's really not all that different
because as i see it being worthy of offerings and being unsurpassed field of merit for the world
is actually being members of the ariya sangha the noble community of those who have reached
different stages of awakening that's how sangha is often described in the suttas
so in my opinion what the anguttarani kaya is saying is that when one develops the seven
qualities one actually works towards liberation then as a noble person one becomes a field of
merit for other people i think this is very nice because it helps us again to come back
to what is essential there are differences they are phrased differently and i think i have i hope
i have been able to show that there is some some slight nuances to the different collections but
in the end if we really look closer they say closely similar things yeah at this point again
i would like to invite any kind of questions or comments and i already take up the next
discourse in the meantime
you
yeah you you have still time to write your comments if you like on what i said so far
i just want to quickly browse through the second discourse which we looked at last time because
there is a curious technical problem that we have that whereas it seems that to me and to those who
were present life at the last lecture the discourse number two was visible in the video it was not
visible so i'm just briefly displaying it into hope that this time it can be seen by everybody
yeah and you might remember that was this image of the coral tree in the in one particular heavenly
realm the heaven of the 33 and it had these images for different stages the withering leaves
for leaving the household and then buds growing in different stages for the levels of absorption
attainment and the flowers in full bloom for awakening and there was just one comment by
claudine discala which i thought was very nice she says in the simile of the coal tree i was most
struck by the idea that the average everyday household or untrained mind can grow and blossom
into the other hand in the simile it is all coming from the same tree in different stages
i thought i was a very beautiful point to make and i just wanted to share that with you
if there are any more questions on these various points i made today i took a little more time to
uh go through the blog comments i found some of them nice to say something i would anyway would
have wanted to say and also it is nice that all those who are not able to be present life are
giving their input if there's no further comments i would then go for the next discourse
so
i'll just clear out the chat
yeah looks like there are no questions so i just continue talking in the hope that i'm not
boring you too much we come to chapter number three discourse number three the discourse on
the simile of the citadel we are getting another simile the parallel is the nagarupa massuta
among the seventh of the anguttara so i read thus have i heard at one time the buddha was staying
at savati in jeta's grove on art epindicus park at that time the blessed one addressed the monks
if a king's border town is equipped with seven things and obtains easily and without difficulty
an abundance of four types of supplies then this king's border town will not be wiped out
by outside enemies but only by internal self-destruction yeah it's just a simile
there's a few minor differences in this simile in the anguttara nikri i will not mention
all of them but one is for example that in the anguttara we are only told that these
seven things and four supplies will help so that the border town will not be
attacked by outsiders but the anguttara does not speak of internal self-destruction
so what are the seven things with which the king's border town is equipped
first of these is a watchtower has been constructed built firmly in the indestructible
the second a moat has been excavated very deep and wide well designed and reliable
the third the town is surrounded by a road that is open and clear level and wide
number four the town has raised an army with the four divisions elephant troops
cavalry chariot troops and infantry
five the town is provided with weapons bows and arrows swords and spears
number six a general has been appointed as gatekeeper one who is sharp witted and wise
in making decisions brave and resolute of excellent counsel who allows entry to the good
and keeps out the bad and the seventh quality a higher rampart has been constructed
extremely solid plastered with mud and painted with whitewash
all of these are to ensure peace within and to control outside enemies
there's a few minor difference in the anguttara
then the party version does not tell us that the army is fourfold or the gatekeeper is not
explicitly said to be a general but i think we can we need not bother about these small differences
the only one that i think is noteworthy is again a difference in sequence
as you see in the file here qualities four and five and the corresponding explanations have
swapped places which is the original sequence no idea does it have any effect on the meaning
i don't think so it's just one of these natural occurrences in in oil transmission that things are
remembered and usually the beginning and the end part is remembered better but somewhere in the
middle they just swap places so besides those seven qualities
we have the four kinds of supplies that the king's border town needs to have in abundance
so the first or a is it is provided with
there's a question i want to first reply to that the question is internal self-destruction reminds
on the things that the buddhist said keep the lychavis from being conquered by ajata sattu yeah
that's quite true it could be that some political event of this type has led to a commentary
on this discourse and in the course of transmission this has then become part of the discourse itself
so the four kinds of supplies that the king's border town should have in abundance
it should have plenty of water grass and firewood
it should have harvested plenty of rice and stored of plenty of wheat
it should have plenty of grains and beans of various sorts and it should store um ghee
honey sugar cane sugar fish salt and dried meat so now we come to the meaning of the simile
in the same way if a noble disciple gains seven wholesome qualities and attains four
higher states of mind easily and without difficulty then for this reason the noble
disciple will be beyond the reach of king mara will not be influenced by evil and unwholesome
states will not be defiled by defilements and will not be born again how does a noble
disciple gain seven wholesome qualities the first is he has or she has firm faith that is deeply
settled in the tathagata faith with firm roots that cannot be influenced by non-buddhist becluses
or brahmins or by gods maras barahmas or anyone else in the world
the second is that the noble disciple has at all times a sense of shame what is shameful he knows
is shameful namely evil and unwholesome states which pollute and defile which have various evil
consequences and create the root cause of birth and death and the third quality the noble
disciple continuously fears wrongdoing what is wrong he knows is wrong namely evil and unwholesome
states and we get the same as above which pollute and defile which will have various evil consequences
and create the root cause of birth and death the fourth quality the noble disciple continuously
applies effort cutting off what is evil and unwholesome and cultivating wholesome states
he constantly arouses his mind is single-minded and steadfast regarding the roots of wholesomeness
without giving up his task the fifth quality he studies wildly and learns much retaining it and
not forgetting it accumulating wild learning of what is called the dharma which is good in the
beginning good in the middle and good in the end which has proper meaning and expression is endowed
with purity and reveals the holy life in this way he studies widely and learns much regarding all
the teachings familiarizing himself with them even a thousand times considering and contemplating
them with knowledge vision and profound penetration the sixth quality the noble disciple continuously
practices mindfulness achieves right mindfulness always recalling and not forgetting what was done
or heard long ago and the seventh quality the noble disciple develops comprehension and wisdom
attains understanding concerning the rise and fall of phenomena attains noble penetrative knowledge
and discriminative understanding concerning the true cessation of suffering
yeah it's not any differences with the Pali version that I think we need to discuss
for example quality number five the Pali counterpart is is a little bit less detailed but the main
gist is the same yeah and the four higher states of mind that the noble disciple attains
are the first second third and fourth absorption
so question aren't these qualities inherent in being a noble disciple if so why point them out
um noble disciple are they inherent in a noble disciple not sure if all of them are inherent
yeah he would have or she would have faith
maybe some of them are present in a budding stage and need to be further encouraged
and quality number four it seems that a noble disciple can also be negligent so for him or her
to develop effort is not something I would think is inevitably included in being a noble
disciple which often but not exclusively in the discourses refers to those who have attained the
stages of awakening but not always the case the noble disciple also need not necessarily be one
who studies wildly he or she might have just learned very little he or she should be having
some mindfulness but whether that is continuous or not is a question that we all are facing in our
practice I believe yeah and the wisdom of understanding the rise and fall of phenomena
there must be some initial insight into impermanence otherwise one would not become
a noble disciple in the sense of attaining stream entry but penetrative full insight into impermanence
and it's leading on to the true cessation of suffering one would have to be an arahant I think
and yeah regarding the absorptions this is um much discussed practice that your question is
leading me to the relevance of the absorptions for progress through the stages of awakening
and I have discussed that in my satipatana book to some extent as far as I can see
uh the first two stages of awakening do not necessarily require the ability to attain
absorption so our noble disciple would not necessarily have to be one who attains the
first or even the second third and fourth absorption and my personal hold on the situation
is that it is for the sake of non-return and full awakening that one needs to develop
have developed the absorptions but I think I stop at this point otherwise we
you'll see if there's interest we can discuss that in more detail
so in the case of all these four absorptions the noble disciple is abiding in a happiness that
lacks nothing I like that very much a peaceful happiness that leads naturally to nirvana
this is what the buddhist said having heard the buddhist words the monks were delighted and
remembered them well and andrew says this seems like the five faculties of faith energy
mindfulness concentration and wisdom um I assume you're speaking about the seven
so we have the faith here under the first quality we have the energy under the fourth
we have mindfulness under six
we have wisdom under seven and where did I lose concentration our concentration is obviously the
other four higher states of mind definitely yeah very good point yeah well done
yeah so here we come now to the main points there's one difference that I just like to mention
presentation the the way of presenting what otherwise is fairly similar differs between
madhyama agama and anguttara because the chinese version it just lists the seven qualities and
these four higher states and then after them correlates them with the simile the anguttara
gives each quality together with the simile it says the firm faith is like the watch star
and the sense of shame is like this so they are both saying the same but the structure of how
they say it is different this is another very very very typical thing that we get in oral
transmission but anyway both discourses agree on the meaning on the correlation of this simile of
the border town with these different qualities so the firm faith is like this watch tower or pillar
at the entrance of the city the sense of shame is like the moat and fear of wrongdoing like
the road that goes around the town the effort is like armies the armies the in the chinese
we had the fourfold armies elephants horses infantry and chariots wide learning is like
armory like the spears and bows and whatever mindfulness is the gatekeeper the famous
gatekeeper simile and wisdom is the rampart
and then with the absorptions we get the correlation with the four provisions water
grass and wood is the first rise and weed the second grain beans the third and ghee honey the
fourth absorption at this point i would like to invite your comments or questions on this
main points any of these correlations that you find interesting anything you might like to add
and the question i always have at the end of a discourse in some way can we can we can we
relate this to our practice to our everyday life can we make sense out of it
you
does noble disciples in this sutra refer to those who have achieved the first state of enlightenment
and the noble disciple in the previous sutra refer to general buddhist who intend to follow
the path yeah in in its general use in the sutras the noble disciple often has that nuance of
meaning somebody who has at least achieved or is at least on the path to stream entry
but it is not always entirely so
so we so we cannot fix it down we should have the the idea that the noble disciple is the opposite
to the ignoble non-disciple that is the noble disciple is somebody who has certain basic
ethic qualities and will keep some basic ethic conduct and often is one or who has practiced to
such a degree that he or she is on the path to stream entry or has attained stream entry
but this is not invariably so the case
so
yeah so maybe i say a little bit more on this simile
so what what what strikes me is that the the faith is like a pillar which is deeply
embedded in the earth and that gives me this feeling of firm roots
and shame and wrongdoing they they they they create a protective space around
an effort the armies this is what with what we we move forwards and learning
uh it's like uh i i find the image of the armory helpful it gives me this idea that the more i i
i have real learning then in any situation i'm able to to to to to to take hold of what i need
it's like i i mean in this bottle battle situation i don't know but i suppose in one situation one
needs a sword in another one one needs maybe a bow to shoot and the more of armory one has the
better one can react yeah the simile of mindfulness as a gatekeeper occurs also elsewhere this this
kind of screening function of mindfulness and wisdom as the rampant but here's a comment
mode is at the very bottom one's consciousness
for the German has a high and broad path that leads around for observation which makes sense
because looks towards looks forward towards the wise would say yeah yeah that that that that that
that that ability to observe and that that feeling of space we get
by shame and wrongdoing yeah thank you
yeah and with the absorptions i mean there's not so much to say but um
we see that the s going through the for absorption is progressively refined so also the
supplies we get first are the basic water grass and wood and for the fourth absorption then we
get ghee and honey which in ancient india were considered a superior foods that one only gets
on special occasions
so
while some people are typing i just make a small
technical announcement if you are getting thrown out of the session from time to time then I was
told by the technical people that this is maybe because you're using a wireless and if you if
you use a normal LAN connection that should not happen. So there's a comment by Andrew in this
Chinese Sutta in the fourth journey it says with the previous passing way of joint displeasure
I don't really understand this sentence this is a standard description of the fourth jhana we have
the same also in the in the Pali version it says with the overcoming of happiness
and pain with coming to an end of earlier joy and displeasure
with the neutral feeling he or she dwells having attained the fourth jhana so that is a standard
description which shows that with the fourth absorption all mental or physical pleasure or
pain dichotomy is left behind there is pure pure neutrality in this experience
we should at some point go more into the jhanas I think but maybe when we get a little further
and we come across the jhanas we can take a closer look at what they mean there is
uh no difference in the description of the four jhanas between the Chinese agamas and the Pali
discourses he says I'll have to achieve the fourth jhana to know what it means by previous
joy and displeasure if you can that's the best solution but um
yeah we I think we leave it at that the the previous joy and displeasure just refers to
what you experienced previous to entering the fourth jhana so this can cover pre-jhana stages
but also in the jhanas so there there is some differences in interpretation about at what jhana
what factor is left behind and offhand what I recall is one explanation but that might not
be the one from the Pali tradition I'm not sure but I believe the idea is that the displeasure
there is a slight nuance of displeasure still in the first absorption because the depth of
concentration is maintained by two factors vitaka and vichara initial and sustained mental
applications and so because of having to maintain the concentration there's a slight wobbliness
to the experience and this is just a nuance of displeasure and the joy would joy would be
somanasa so I assume that would correspond to petey and petey as rapture is a experience a
condition of the mind experienced in the first and second absorption but is left behind with
the attainment of the third absorption but if you can achieve the experience yourself you will be
able to answer the question better than me I think there's another comment by lynda sense of shame
and fear of wrongdoing seem more like something that counterbalance the others by stressing a
certain sort of modesty yeah that's actually true yeah yeah yeah I see the point very good
fear and shame they hold back the others are moving forward there's the faith
effort mindfulness wisdom yeah very nice
what really strikes me is this wide learning and armory that that I found because in my own
experience when I when I had become a monk in the beginning I was just meditating and I thought all
this theoretical concern with the suttas is for those who don't really want to meditate
and I did not make particularly much progress and after getting into some study of the suttas I found
that really gives me the armory the weapons I mean I don't like to think of meditation terms
of fighting and weapon but in this simile this is what it gives us that some some learning
of the discourses and trying to understand as them really gives me the tools to deal with
difficulties in meditation there's another comment here by minefred the simile shows the
amount of work that is needed to fortify oneself against Mara's armies yeah yeah just like the
town on the border place where most easily the enemies will attack and so it needs all these
protective measures and in our attempt to progress on the path we we are like like in a border town
yeah so I think I'll go still for the for the next sutta
so
this is a discourse on the water simile and there is basically almost no differences
that I found worthwhile noting between the Chinese and the Pali version
so I read to you thus have I heard at one time the Buddha was staying at Savati in Jaita's Grove
on Atapindika's park at that time the blessed one addressed the monks I shall teach you about seven
persons in the water listen closely listen closely and pay careful attention the monks listen to
receive instruction this is a standard phrase that we get very often so the buddhist said what are
the seven and now I am abbreviating one person remains lying in the water another person surfaces
but then sinks again excuse me another person surfaces and remains standing in the water
another person surfaces and having remained standing observes another person surfaces and
having observed crosses over towards the father bank another person surfaces and having crossed
over reaches the father bank another person surfaces and having reached the father bank is
bank is called a person dwelling on the father bank.
The Buddha says, I have taught in brief this simile of seven people in the water, as it
has been set out and described above.
Do you know what its meaning is?
How to explain it?
And what its moralness?
The monk said to the Blessed One, The Blessed One is the source of the Dharma.
The Blessed One is the master of the Dharma.
The Dharma comes from the Blessed One.
May he explain it.
Having heard, we will come to know its meaning fully.
This question and answer exchange is not found in the Pali version with the Buddha, just
on his own, continues straight away, to give an explanation of what this simile is about.
So the Buddha says again, listen closely and pay careful attention, I shall explain the
meaning to you, and the monks listen.
The Buddha said, what is the meaning of the person that remains lying?
Here, a person is obstructed by unwholesome states, defiled by defilements, and experiencing
the consequences of evil states, which create the root cause for birth and death.
What is the person who, having surfaced, sings again?
Here, a person has surfaced by gaining faith in the true Dharma, keeping the precepts,
practicing generosity, learning much and developing wisdom, thereby practicing the true Dharma.
At a later time, however, he loses faith, which becomes unstable.
He gives up keeping the precepts, practicing generosity, learning much and developing wisdom.
These practices thus become unstable.
What is the person who, having surfaced, remains standing?
Here, a person has surfaced by gaining faith in the true Dharma, keeping the precepts,
practicing generosity, learning much and developing wisdom, thereby practicing the true Dharma.
At a later time, his faith remains firm and is not lost, and his keeping of the precepts,
practice of generosity, learning much and developing wisdom remains stable and firm
and are not lost.
What is the person who, having surfaced, remains standing, and having remained standing observes?
Here, a person has surfaced by gaining faith in the true Dharma, and we get all the rest
of the description, keeps precepts, generosity, learning, wisdom, and they remain stable and
are not lost.
Now, being established in the true Dharma, he knows dukkha as it really is, knows the
arising of dukkha, knows the cessation of dukkha, and knows the path to the cessation
of dukkha as it really is.
Through such knowing and seeing, three fetters are eliminated, namely personality view, clinging
to precepts and doubt, and through the cessation of these three fetters he attains stream entry.
So this text introduces us to the first of the four stages of awakening, recognized in
early Buddhism, and what marks this experience of stream entry is that three conditions
or states called fetters are gone forever, and these are the belief that there is a permanent
self at the essence of existence, of experience.
These are clinging to precepts and observances in the sense that one believes that the path
to freedom is only possible by this particular way of acting and doing.
It doesn't mean that one disregards the precept, it just means that dogmatic adherence to them
as the sole way to liberation, and doubt, doubt in the sense of knowing what is wholesome
and what is unwholesome.
All these three are eradicated, and we usually understand this as an expression of what happens
at the time when the stream entry attains for the first time in his or her life the
experience of nirvana.
That experience is such that it is incomparable to any other type of experience, and in particular
that it is an experience where the I, the I and me that usually is always there in any
other type of experience, is gone.
So having had that experience, the stream ender knows for himself or herself that there
is no permanent observer inside, let me put it like this.
And with that experience also that deep sense of doubt is gone.
There might still be doubt about like, should I go left or right in order to get to this
and that place?
I mean we are not talking about these things, we are just talking about this essential doubt
about what is important in life and what is really wholesome and meaningful and what is
unwholesome and not meaningful.
And the third is the clinging to precepts, this idea that just by following a certain
outward form of behavior, everything else will happen by itself.
So such a stream enter is assured of progress towards full awakening within at most seven
existences without falling into evil states.
Having passed through at most seven existences in heavenly or human realms, he will attain
the ending of suffering.
So that was what we briefly mentioned before about energy and effort, a stream enter who
makes a lot of effort can still get further and even this life make an end, but he or
she according to early Buddhist doctrine will at most experience another seven lives.
The experience of stream empty has had such a profound impact on this person that during
these seven lives sooner or later he or she will continue to progress and become totally
liberated.
Come to the next, what is the person who having surfaced remains standing, having remained
standing observes and having observed crosses over.
Here person has surfaced by gaining faith in the true Dharma and again the passage we
had above should be understood.
And through knowing and seeing Dukkha, three fetters are eliminated, namely personality
view, cling to precepts and doubt.
Having eliminated these three fetters, he also reduces sensual desire, anger and ignorance
and attains once returning.
Having passed through one existence in a heavenly or human realm, he will attain the ending of suffering.
This is the second stage of awakening and recognized in early Buddhism where the fetters
of sensual desire and anger are being considerably reduced.
And the Chinese version here also mentions ignorance.
Come to the third, what is the person who having surfaced remains standing, having remained
standing observes and having observed crosses over and having crossed over reaches the father
bank.
Here a person has surfaced by gaining faith in the true Dharma, etc.
Through such knowing and seeing, the five lower fetters are eliminated, namely lustful
desire, ill will, personality view, cling to precepts and doubt.
With these five lower fetters eliminated, he will be born in another heavenly realm
and there attain final nirvana, having attained the condition of non-returning, not coming
back to this world.
Whereas the previous person we mentioned still will return one more time to be reborn in
the world of sensuality, which according to Buddhist cosmology means the world of humans
and of certain sensual heavenly realms.
You may remember the realm of the 33 that we discussed last time with that coral tree
and that is also a realm within the sensual world.
The gods there enjoy sensual pleasures.
But the non-returner will only be reborn in another much higher heavenly realm in the
Brahma world completely beyond sensual desire.
What is the person who having surfaced remains standing, having remained standing observes,
having observed crosses over, having crossed over reaches the father bank and having reached
the father bank is called a brahmin dwelling on the father bank.
Here a person has surfaced by gaining faith in the true dharma, etc.
Through such knowing and seeing, he attains liberation of the mind from the taint of desire,
from the taint of becoming and from the taint of ignorance.
Being liberated, he knows he is liberated.
He knows as it really is, birth is ended.
The holy life has been established.
What was to be done has been done.
There will not be another existence.
This is the Arahant, the highest stage of awakening.
So when I said earlier I shall teach you about seven persons in the water is was on account
of this that I said it.
This is what the Buddha said and having heard the Buddha's words, the monks were delighted
and remembered them well.
So the main points we get in this simile, somebody is in the predicament of being in
the water and just remains lying, submerged in the water is the person who is just immoral
and somebody is able to come out, surfaces but then sinks back again into the water and
that is somebody who for some time practices the dharma, becomes established in morality
but then later on gives it up again, a backslider I call it.
Somebody surfaces and remains standing as somebody who keeps morality and then we come
to the four stages of awakening.
The one who observes, who has seen the truth, discourses speak of stream entry often as
the arising of the eye of dharma, the dhammacakku.
This is a stream entry.
Someone crosses over the water is a once returner, reaches the father bank is a non-returner
and the arahant is called a brahmin dwelling on the father bank.
The reference to the brahmin is only in the identification of this in the Maja Maha Agama
not in the part I read to you before but it's also found in the Pali and brahmin here
stands for holy man not for a member of the caste.
Why does one lose faith and the next one doesn't while they both do the same practice?
The first one practice must be lacking in, well it is not the question of the practice
I assume but rather of one's commitment to it and of one's observance of the results
and perhaps also the influence of others I mean why do two people stop smoking and one
starts again to smoke?
There's a number of reasons, one is the effort one self-discipline of that person the other
is being aware of the beneficial health results and a third one is if somebody has stopped
but all the friends around him or her keep smoking it becomes very difficult.
So I assume somebody who gets himself or herself established in morality but is surrounded
by people who continue in all kind of indulgence it will be much more difficult to maintain
that practice.
The redefining of brahmin in that way as is frequently done must have been hard to swallow
for brahmin's.
In a way yes but it seems there are different strands of brahmin's we meet which in the
early discourses there are those apparently who uphold that birth in a particular lineage
or family means to be a brahmin but there are others who are quite receptive to this
redefining of the brahmin in the sense of inner mental qualities but for some it must
have been hard to swallow.
So there is one more comment coming I'll take that and then I think we have come to
our end.
So without achieving stream into we can still sink when the conditions are gone.
Yes in a way you could put it like that but I mean if one really practices and observes
oneself and see how much one oneself is more happy and one is of more a source of happiness
for others then even without having attained a stream entry I believe there is relatively
little chance to sink again at least in the present life.
But obviously just as getting the fourth jhana will make you understand exactly the issue
about when somanas and domanas disappear so I assume if it's possible to achieve stream
entry that would be the best way to make sure that we will not sink down again.
Yeah that's it for today I thank you all for your attention and I hope that I have not
been too boring and one point or the other has been of some interest and sometimes it
gets a little technical there are some things that I feel I should be touching on but then
sometimes also it becomes practical and I hope you will continue navigating with me
between these two extremes through the middle course of the Magyema Agama.
Thank you very much for your attention and bye bye.