So, welcome everybody. This is the 4th lecture in my course on the Adahand and the 4th Truth
in Early Buddhist Discourse. As usual I first go through what we had in the blog. There
was a longer discussion on the nature of Dukkha and there was a very, I felt a very
pertinent comment made by Manfred Wiesberger. He says, the subject of Dukkha is entirely
subjective and once it is taken that way there can be no confusion. And then he plays
a little bit with words. He says, I Dukkha because I experience physical pain. I Dukkha
because something that seems desirable is no longer desirable to me. I Dukkha because
I cannot get my five factors of existence to be as I want them to be. As for the Adahand,
who Dukkhas? I thought that was really nicely put with a little bit of wit and it clarifies
what we mean when we say that the Adahand has eradicated Dukkha. Certainly as even the
Buddha experiences physical pain, I think I might have mentioned this in the first or
the second lecture that there are occasions where the discourses say the Buddha said he
had back pain and he asked another disciple, you teach him my place, I want to stretch out.
So he feels that there is pain and he also does the appropriate action required by the situation,
but he doesn't suffer because of it. He is not mentally affected by it. After this witty
clarification, we can go straight away for the discourses. So the first discourse we looked at
last time, Madhyama Agama 24, that was this lion's roar, this strong proclamation made by
Sariputta where he is being wrongly accused and then he illustrates the way he reacts to this,
his attitude with various similes and we had the simile of the ox who has his horns of an outcast,
then the four elements, a broom and I think in the Chinese also a rag and then the image of a jug
with cracks where the oil comes out and finally the very stark image of a pretty young girl or
pretty young boy that find that somebody has hung a corpse around their neck and at that time when
I presented these similes I already said that I have some doubts about the way this part of both
discourses presents the attitude of an arahant towards his or her body. So this is a topic that
I want to explore now. First, some comments from the blog. This is Linda Grace. She says in regard
to the last two similes, the one on the jug and particularly the one with the corpse hung around
the neck. In addition to the idea, just a second, that being filled with disgust for the body seems
to imply aversion and not detachment and equanimity and that these similes do not conclude with
describing the mind dwelling in the Brahma viharas in the Divine Abidings, there is something else
that I find quite odd, she says. That is, the similes used in numbers 3 to 8, these are the similes
on the elements, the broom, the rag, specifically use the image of impure bodily excretion in
describing how earth, water, fire, wind, broom and rag deal with both what is pure and impure. Without
feeling embarrassed, ashamed or humiliated. And Sari Putta uses these similes to describe his own
mind. But then in simile 10, when he describes contemplating the impure parts of his body, he
says, my mind is embarrassed and ashamed and filled with utter disgust. Nearly the exact opposite
responds that he has used in the previous similes in relation to impurities of the body, seems not to
fit very well. Yeah, I just really like to thank Linda for this really astute observation. It really
hit me. Actually, I thought I should have seen him myself. Yeah, what is really great observation and
that really inspired me to do a little bit more research on this particular passage. And but
before I present what I have found, I give a few more comments from the blog which related to this
and which I personally found helpful. And after that, we have time to discuss. So Mark Johnson, he
says, I think introducing disgust as a form of aversion would be a mistake with someone who is
able to see the body for what it is. Yeah, I think that's that's a good point. As long as this means
to have aversion, then when somebody has a true vision of reality, we would not expect him or her
to have such an attitude. There's a longer comment by Julianna Martini. She explains the whole idea
of she's actually written a nice paper on that. So she explains the whole idea of a super of this lack
of beauty or impurity, even, she says, a super or the contemplation of the absence of beauty, can need
to absorption, because it practically facilitates detachment from the body, excuse me, and the
necessary cooling down of the five external senses, necessary to enter the beginning or access stages
of concentration as well as absorption. Thus, it can bring about joy and lead to joy. One of the
factors of Jhana quite different from disgust. Disgust, in fact, will be the result of incorrect
practice. The heart of the matter is not disgust, which can perhaps in the instrumental as an
antidote to lust. But coming back to the middle ground, we're liking and disliking do not push and
pull. Because there's mindfulness and right vision, seeing things simply as they are. She also says,
the text speak of contemplating the impure Suji, parts of the body as a way of developing the
perception of the non beautiful. In ancient India, there's a strong cultural notion that the body is
a source of impurity. This is primarily a ritual, but it spreads to all spheres of shared common
knowledge. And henceforth, nobody would find it beautiful per se when remind of its impurity. So
the instructions somehow exploit this normal reaction, at least in the Indian context, in order
to inject, so to speak, a response that will eventually help to rebalance and realign perceptions
to depotentize lust, meditatively and cognitively in general, this works well because the ancient
audience was already conditioned to recognize the impurity as non beautiful. Yeah, I thought I was a
very useful comment, especially reminding us of the Indian background, this, this notion of impurity in
the practical courses on Satipatthana that I have taught is usually the one that most participants,
particularly from a Western background, find really difficult. And I think the point that this should be
seen against its Indian background is really helpful. And also that the discourses use this word
impurity. And the word non beautiful asubha interchangeably leaves it open to us to decide which of
these two terms captures this particular attitude towards the body better. And in my personal
experience, it's definitely asubha, the absence of beauty that speaks to me much more than impurity.
And then there is a last comment from Stuart corner, very witty. I had to I cracked up when I read that. He
says, but from a human perspective, the body is disgusting. If you leave it alone, to go its own
way for a few days, everyone holds their noses when you walk by, you need to be constantly on top of it
to maintain even a little bit of beauty. And that is very worrisome work. So yeah, he has definitely a
point in that. And I think there is definitely a point in seeing the parts usually of the body usually
perceived as attractive in balance with those parts, usually seen as repulsive. And to balance these out,
is it is good to see that there are disgusting parts of the body. And as Stuart has put in a way
that I, I can't put it as nicely as him, but it's definitely a fact. Yeah, if we don't keep on
cleaning our body, it gets into a condition that is not very pleasant for ourselves and others.
But still, I think the attitude of an Arahant, and this is one of the two main topics of our course
here, should as far as I can see, be, be balanced. There's one comment here by Bruni Alessandra.
Anyway, the body is impermanent and its observation should bring to understand the real nature of the
body. Yeah, and that's quite true. But that's the whole point. Now, I have been a little bit
following up this, this particular statement that triggered off this very interesting discussion,
and also very useful for me, because this is a topic I'm present actually collecting information
on this whole idea of contemplating impurity or non-beautiful. And here I have the passages again,
and I have been reminded, I think by Rodolfo, that, how was it not Rodolfo? I don't remember,
somebody on the block mentioned that there's also an Ekotarika Agama parallel. Normally,
in my presentation, I concentrate on the Madhyama Agama and the Pali parallel. But when these
difficult passages come up, it is always important to look at all extant parallels in order to get a
proper evaluation. And so as you can see here on the board, we have all three versions have this
simile of the pretty girl or boy, or just a girl that has a corpse hung around her neck.
And the Anguttara Nikaya has what is probably the strongest of the three statements.
I'm repelled, horrified, and disgusted with his putrid body. And after that, I have also put the
Pali. Imina, puti, kaya, naatanti, yami, hara, yami, jiguttan, chami. And the Madhyama Agama says,
I constantly contemplate the foul and impure parts of this body. My mind is embarrassed,
ashamed, and filled with utter disgust. And the Ekotarika Agama is relatively short. We get the
simile and the girl detests having this corpse hung around her neck. And then Sariputta says,
I'm like this. I detest this body just like that, not different. The word for detest the Chinese
character can have a variety of meanings and can also stand for what in Pali is sangvega,
which is not really discussed, but more in the direction of disenchantment.
But I think in view of the simile, the idea of somebody who is just dressed up,
made herself very beautiful, and then you put a corpse around her neck.
This is certainly detesting or disgusting. This is not just disenchantment.
So we have this statement in all of the three versions, although we can see like an increase.
It seems that the Pali version is making a very strong statement. And the Ekotarika is the
weakest one. He just says he detests this body. Yeah. And so then I started to do some search
based on the Pali. But the Chinese, it's the Chinese character of detest. Wait, I have it
here, I think. Doopie doopie doop. There it is. I just paste it in for you.
And Thirakkava, the Chinese Sanskrit dictionary, gives nirveda, sangvega, udvigna and jugupsanaya
for Sanskrit counterparts. Yeah. So I, with the Chinese, Agamas, the problem is that
they are all by different translators. So for example, the term I just pasted in for Weihin
Cho, it might be this term in the Ekotarika Agama, but the same in the original may be
translated by a different term in the Magyama Agama or Samyukta Agama and so on. Therefore,
it is much more difficult to search. But in the Pali version, we don't have that problem.
So what I did is I searched for this Atiyami, Harayami, Jiguchami, this series of being
repelled, horrified and disgusted in different grammatical forms. And I also searched for the
putikaya, the putrid body. Before I get into those passages, there's one which is not related to the
body, but which I think still connects very nicely with what Manfred has told us about Dukkha.
And this is in the Itivuttaka. I'm just pasting in the references if any of you wants to follow
this up. Mark asked to make the characters bigger. No, I can't make them bigger. But I mean,
Weihin Cho has understood that I can't make them bigger. Anyway, I don't want to go too
much into this small philological things. I want to stay with the main topics.
So Itivuttaka 43, this is the page of the PTS edition. And this describes those who lag behind,
those who go too far and those who hit the middle-way approach. So I'm going to look at
the middle-way approach. So those who lag behind are those who are in love with existence,
but those who go too far are those who are repelled, horrified and disgusted by
bhava by existence. I just read the Pali for those of you who bhavani, vakupani, kiati yamana,
hara, yamana, jikuchamana, vibhavani, abhinana. They delight in non-existence because they are
repelled, horrified and disgusted with existence. And those who have true vision, who just see
things as they are and are disenchanted, are detached. This already gives us a little bit
of a feeling that this series of terms, horrified, repelled, horrified and disgusted, is very strong.
Now the full set of terms, that is to say, this putrid body and I'm repelled,
horrified and disgusted with it, occurs also in the Samyutani Kaya 131.
This is Bhikkhuni Vijaya and she is being challenged by Mara, who is trying to challenge
her, inviting her to Indulgent Sensuality, I believe, or something of that type. So it's
a situation we get repeatedly where Mara approaches nuns while meditating all alone
and these nuns have to defend themselves against this male aggressor. So in this situation she
clarifies that she is repelled, horrified and disgusted with this putrid body. While the
context makes such a statement somewhat understandable, it is remarkable that both
of the parallels that we have in the Samyukta Agama Taisho 99 and in the partial Samyukta
Agama Taisho 100 do not have such a statement. There's no statement at all by Vijaya saying
I'm disgusted by my body in any way. Then we get a similar passage in the Terigata.
This is the collection of verses by awakened nuns Bhikkhuni Kema and she's in a similar situation.
She is trying to defend herself against Mara, who is more or less inviting her to
essential pleasures or sex. And she's using the same passage to explain to him she's not
interested in sex or in essential pleasures. She says I'm repelled, horrified and disgusted with
this putrid body. The Terigata, unfortunately, we do not have a parallel. It seems that only
in the Theravada tradition has this collection by awakened nuns being transmitted. We have
references to it in the Moolah Sarvastivada Vinaya also in the Samyukta Agama but we do not
have the collection itself at some point in the history of transmission of the text in India.
This was apparently lost. And then there is another passage.
This is in the Samyukta Nikaya, excuse me, volume 320. This is the story of Vakkali.
Vakkali is sick and asked the Buddha to come and the Buddha comes and says how is your condition
and do you have any regrets and the Vakkali says yes I haven't been able to see you for so long.
And then the Buddha says to him what's the use of seeing this putrid body of mine.
So we don't have the passage on being repelled, horrified and disgusted but the Buddha speaks
of his own body as Imina putikayena, again the instrumental, this putrid body of mine.
Again we have two Chinese Agama parallels. Both of them do not have any such expression
but I need to mention that the whole interchange moves differently in these Agamas. The story of
Vakkali wanting to see the Buddha is not there in the first place. Before I continue I have a look
here. John Emma says these are reminiscent of Hippathiya rejecting a suitor by giving him her
menstrual cloth to illustrate the nature of the body after which he lusts. I don't know this story
but it has a similar it has a very similar ring. Thank you for putting it in. I assume from the
name it may be something Greek. Yeah yeah yeah Greek philosopher right lovely. Oh thank you very
much John. Yeah it's the same point to try to bring out the repulsive nature of their own body
in order to stop the male aggressor. Now the entire passage I'm repelled horrified and
disgusted but it comes again in the Samyutta Nikaya with the parallel in the Vinaya.
And this is the story of the mass suicide of monks. It's a very tough story. This is in fact
what I'm at present collecting information and I will be writing a paper on that.
So the story is there there's a apparently recently ordained monks and the Buddha gives them
a recommendation. He praises the practice of asubha of contemplating the non-beautiful
or even impure nature of the body. And in the Pali version the Buddha then goes on a meditation
retreat but in all of the parallels I have checked this meditation retreat is not mentioned.
Anyway the Buddha is not present and these monks start practicing in such an unbalanced manner
that they being repelled horrified and disgusted with their body they search for a knife. They
want to kill themselves. They want to commit suicide. And there's then a story that somebody
helps them those who are not able to do it themselves and at the next Pali moka recitation
or in the Pali version at the time when the Buddha comes out of his retreat he says oh Ananda
how come so few monks. Ananda says Bantia you know you gave this recommendation on asubha and
you know what happened. And the Buddha calls the monks together and says monks there's a very
peaceful way of meditation mindfulness of breathing.
Yeah this story is a tricky one. For our understanding I think an important point
is that the Buddha has not given full instructions there. He is just and this is in all the versions
the different Vinayas that I checked he's just praised asubha. So my own my own take on this
story is that it shows us how contemplating the absence of beauty or impure nature of the body
if it is not done properly according to the instructions can go totally overboard.
The instructions we find in the Satipatanas who give us for example this simile they say it's just
as looking at that seems to be a sawing utensil a bag uputamukamutoli a bag with two openings that
is full of grains and rice. So if you look at rice and mung beans and things I mean you don't feel
their beauty you don't feel disgusted it's just a very balanced you see others rice there's
mung beans etc. This is the appropriate attitude when contemplating the anatomical nature of the
body. And so my own take on this suicide story is that because these were new monks because the Buddha
had not given full instructions on how to undertake this meditation but had just recommended it
these monks started to practice on their own and they still had this ancient Indian background
which Julianna has described to us and so the practice went overboard and nobody was
apparently present with the type of authority to say stop no this is don't this is not the way you
should do it. But coming back to our actual topic because there was some discussion on the blog
whether discussed towards the body is revolved with aversion or not the precisely same passage
the same words just in the plural that the Anguttarani kaya according to the Anguttarani
kaya sari puta says about his own body is precisely what describes the mental condition
of these unawakened monks who are just about to commit suicide.
And there's another two passages where the same is again used in relation to suicide this time
it's not a report of actual suicide it's a story of the other punna and there's a series of things
that might happen to him and every time he says well if somebody abuses me I think I'm fortunate
that they don't hit me and then the Buddha says so if somebody hits you well I am glad that at
least they don't use a knife to stab me and if somebody stabs you well I'm glad that at least
they don't kill you and the Buddha says if somebody kills you well in that case I reflect
there are other disciples of the Buddha who being repelled horrified and disgusted with this
putrid body kill themselves. No it's not putrid body it's just kaya chajeevita I'm sorry
being repelled horrified and disgusted with their body and life.
So rounding up this discussion we are in a very for me very puzzling situation
there is very good arguments particularly the argument made by Linda and also the passages are
presented now which seem to indicate that speaking of this putrid body is understandable
but being repelled horrified and disgusted by it does not seem to be the type of attitude we would
associate with an arahant. At the same time we have three parallel versions who even though in
less stronger terms in the Chinese Agamas agree that the sari puta made such a statement.
If you have any questions or comments now or on the blog
yeah then I continue the other discourse that we had a look at last time that was Madhyam Agama 25
and that was a discourse that or there are some questions but I continue for a little
while and when you have done your questions I come back to you.
There was a discourse on five cases where one might feel resentment towards another person
and how one can change one's perception of this other person because that is the thing that
triggers our resentment and that may if we change the way we see the other person we will also be
better able to deal with the state in our own mind and just to remind us again of the different
things that we had. The first was if somebody has bodily impurity then this is like a dirty cloth
we just take the parts that are clean. If somebody has verbal impurities it's like plants on the water
surface we push them aside to get into the water. If somebody has body and verbal impurity this is
like the water in the hoof of an ox. We kneel down to take whatever little we can get from it.
If somebody is totally impure this is like a sick person all alone in the wilderness
the ideal occasion for being compassionate and if somebody has no impurities then this is like
a beautiful pool enjoy it. There are some comments on this but I want to first see what's happening
in the chat. Mark says since the Chinese versions are softer in the approach could it be that in
the act of translation the translation was softened for the benefit of the Chinese audience.
There is an interesting idea Mark but I particularly the ecotortica agma can be very very
tough and usually it has the more stronger expressions. So I am the ecotortica agma is a
problematic collection but my personal impression would be that the way the Chinese has come down
probably represents what was there in the Indic original but a good idea. Rodolfo
shouldn't be equanimity and not disgust towards the body. Disgust does not sound like the middle
path. Yeah Rodolfo that's precisely my feeling. That is precisely why I said already last time
I have a problem with these passages but I also try to explain the methodological approach
that when there are parallel versions who say the same then on the methodological position
I can say I find this difficult I can say this does not fit with what I see in other passages
but I cannot just reject it and create my own story. So this is for me a very very interesting
case we have here. Mark says I think within Chinese culture the extreme of disgust with
the body would not work very well. Mark I'm not sure about that you see the even if you think of
all this self cremation in the history of Chinese Buddhism which actually started with pre-buddhist
practices in China. I'm not sure. It's a good idea but I mean I can't prove I don't have the
Indic originals but my personal feeling would rather be that we have in these three passages
I am showing on the board we have three levels three stages of development and that the Anguttara
Nika is the perhaps the most most developed one. I think now I go for the next
block things and then I catch up on the questions that are there. So we are back to our five ways of
feeling getting getting out of a feeling of resentment and Robert Grosch says
and I thought that was very nice I interpret the progression in points one through three that is
when somebody has only bodily verbal only verbal impurity or only mental impurity from bodily I'm
sorry he has it here from bodily to both bodily and verbal impurity is intended to urge us to
look very carefully maybe even on ever final levels for what is good in another when we feel
resentment towards that person. I thought that was a very very good point this kind of need to
to to this I think this is the real dynamic in this discourse this need to look closer
not to be easily satisfied with our assessment of this person is bad and is wrong and here I don't
like him but make a real effort as Robert says to to to look very carefully isn't there something
good in him or her at least on a subtle level and then he did I already paste that in here
he also says the first three points are actually very hard training to help us if we are overwhelmed
he offers option four which stops the analysis and only focus on metta yeah I thought it was also
very very I could relate to that comment immediately from from my own practice because sometimes
this trying to go to the final level and see something good it feels a little strenuous you
feel like there should be something good in him shouldn't do and so at that point it's really
like okay I'm overdoing it and it's just the time to sit down and if he is totally impure or not
this is the time for meta or compassion I know before I continue with the blog comments I see
what's happening in the chat in the steward corner if you see the body as uh I'm sorry
the first was rolled over no disgust may have been a prescriptive method against lust yeah yeah
definitely there's a there's a series of perceptual trainings in the early discourses
pa'i nikai's and chinese agamas the Pali terms are particular a particular sunny and a particular
particular sunny the perception of what is repulsive repulsive in that which is generally
seen as unrepulsive and the opposite so the perception of repulsiveness the disgust does
have a function there's no question and steward corner had so nicely told us about the body is
true nature but the point is this is an intermediate stage in the meditative training
I would not expect the other hand to have any more need of that that is that is the point that that
puzzles me steward corner excuse me if you see the body as a sign of existence then
repulsion seems appropriate for an around as an example for the rest of us
yeah steward I I fully agree with what you said on the blog about the body being not
particularly attractive but I thought I had brought up this quote before from the iti
vutaka if I remember correctly where I was saying where the Pali says that those who have
uh feel repulsion towards existence are those who go too far
there's a disinterest in existence there's a disenchantment with it but there's a I think
the the question is maybe it's a question of terminology but I find this iti vutaka discourse
makes it very clear the question is not to say how life is so wonderful the question is also
not to say I I can't stand it anymore it's horrible but I rather think uh then that the
question is a disenchantment uh if you want to say something we have to use the chat this
microphone function is not working so I click off this raising of the hand
yeah then there was a comment by Bruni Alessandra discussed its function to the right view
everything is useful to show the non-existence of the aggregates I always remember that buddha
didn't reach the illumination for human beings but only after having seen their misery he began to
preach his doctrine yeah fully fully fully with you oh I don't know how to pronounce your name
no forgive me if I'm doing it wrong lei cheng lei cheng lei can we practice met a super meta at the
same time well not exactly at the same time but I can say from my own practice that I practice one
right after the other that is actually my own meditation practice I the the first thing I do
every day in the morning is our super practice and the joy I get from that is perfect for getting
into meta and and the two really build on each other because the asuba has also cleared out any
any any any tendency towards even minimal sensuality and and it's a perfect foundation and
I I personally think that this uh this progression actually underlies something we call the eight
vimokas the eight liberations but this will take us off too far from the main topic I think
but um yeah my understanding that the first is seeing forms internally the other next is
seeing forms externally and the third is being determined on what is beautiful
and seeing forms internally and externally in some traditions is understood as contemplating asuba
practicing uh the the contemplation on the anatomical part and being determined on what
is beauty is actually meta meditation and we will come to meta meditation either today or in the
next session meta meditation is the supreme of beauty meta meditation is practiced with a mind
of purity when it is such practice it consists what early buddhism does recognize as
recommendable form of beauty so the idea of bodily beauty is being replaced
by the conception of mental beauty that is why asuba and meta stand in a very close connection
thank you for the question yeah so let me see where I was yeah I brought in the condiment by
robert grush no there was rosa ground she was making a comment in regard to point three about
about getting rid of resentment this is the case where somebody is impure bodily and verbally but
not mentally and she comments in regard to the Pali version being able to obtain mental calmness
or not cannot be checked in another only in oneself unless you ask the other person that is
she says how can this work that I know somebody else is impure bodily is impure verbally but is not
impure is pure on the mental level and I thought that was a very good point to
get a better uh handle on this uh description here so the exact phrasing in the magyama agama that
we get and she was referring to the Pali version but in the maya maga it says there is someone
whose bodily and verbal actions are impure but whose mind is pure to a small extent
now the Pali version uh forgive me for the Pali
so this person gains from time to time vivara of the mind vivara is an opening of the mind
and passada of the mind this passada is brightness or purity
so I would understand this not to mean that this person has uh oh look he has gotten third jhana
and he has gotten second jhana because actually that would also not be possible somebody was
impure bodily and verbal action how could they have deep samadhi attainments but just we see that
from time to time uh there's some degree of mental clarity in this person some degree of
of openness of the mind and I think this relates back to uh the very helpful explanation we got
from robert of this this looking very carefully we see a person is acting in a wrong manner or in
an unwholesome manner he's he or she is speaking in a wrong or unwholesome manner there is still
a chance for us to discover that this is not like this 24 hours a day 31 days a month there
might be just small little moments when we see this person is is a little bit open there's a
little bit of something positive even it does not transmit into full-fledged bodily or verbal
actions but we can see it somewhere in the way he or she reacts in a certain situation or
is suddenly willing to listen to someone else just even for a moment or whatever
so I would understand I would understand it in this way
yeah and then there was another comment by mark now we come to the fifth simile
and the simile of bathing in a beautiful pond which illustrates having no resentment towards
someone who is completely pure and mark says excuse me two of the similes used by when
merci puta indicate the enjoyment and appreciation of nature he enjoys a pleasant bath and rids
himself of the oppression by heat hunger thirst exhaustion and not far from a village there's a
pool full to the brim with clear beautiful water it's banks covered with verdant grass and
surrounded by flowering trees I would think in the monk's simple life unattached to central pleasures
such basic things as being able to bathe in a lovely setting with flowering trees
and all would be most welcome yeah I I'm not totally unattached to central pleasures but I
certainly think that's right yeah when you live out in the in the I mean no I'm not doing that
but in the early times of my monkhood I was living on a on a mountain in a cave and just
without anything just going begging in the morning for food and these these little beauties of of
nature for me it is particularly like little animals the way they it's so beautiful and this
is a type of joy that you get which I I put my feet firmly on the ground and say this is not
unawesome it was something that was inspiring my practice and helping me onwards and then last
comment by Linda Grace and then we are ready with the blog discussion she says about the last case
the person that is entirely pure and like a beautiful pond she says that this could also
to be a lovely way of describing monitor appreciative joy if resentment that perhaps
could also be envy arises in relationship to someone who has such pure qualities actually
focusing on the wholesome body speech and mental actions of that person is enormously refreshing
that purity is something to rejoice in and can be a support for purification of one's own mind
that is quite true
yeah so this is the again very lively discussion we had on the blog these are the few comments I
can't present everything to you so I can only recommend you all go and look there yourself
on the discussion that we had and now I am kind of ready to get into Mahyama Agama 26 but there's
no time for any other questions that you might have
let me just check I didn't miss out any questions
yeah I think I got all of you
good then we are ready to go into Mahyama Agama 26 we are perfectly in time this is a discourse
it has another discourse by our Arahant Sariputta it takes up the topic of the forest monk
yeah this discourse and later it also speaks about the city monk this shows that at the time
of the coming into being of this discourse these two prototypes of Buddhist monastics were
to some degree already in existence the forest monk usually symbolizes a more stronger dedication
to the practice to meditation practice living in the forest ideally following some of the
ascetic practices and living on begging and the city monk usually stands more
for living in closer association with the laity and looking after their ritual and other needs
and also more for the engagement in study but these are obviously not clear-cut divisions
they are very learned forest monks there are I know myself city monks who have quite profound
meditation but still we have these two prototypes these two ideals and usually one finds that monastics
like to associate with one or the other of these two and in modern days we have this image of the
forest monk will be the one who does not use money maybe takes only one meal and who has more
concern about aspects of conduct even in a western setting that are not so easily
palatable to the western audience and so on when you invite a west forest monk you have to be very
careful that you make sure that the his needs his needs his vinegar needs are properly looked after
and the city monk is more the one who has a closer contact with the with the laity those who
are sometimes less concerned with minor aspects of conduct they will use money and they will drive
cars maybe and yeah so anyway this is just a little bit of a background
now the actual setting of this discourse is that we have one of these forest monks
and his name is Gulisani excuse me and he has come to visit the monastic community
and our friend Gulisani is not a particularly well-behaved monk and so Sari puta takes up
the opportunity for giving him a teaching but he does this in a very very beautiful and diplomatic
way he does not say hey Gulisani what are you doing this is not wrong this is wrong this is
right instead he notices Gulisani is around and then he gives a general teaching he says you see
if there's a forest monk he should be like this and like that i have myself experienced as a monk
friend of mine who teaches in this way and he has pointed out some of my mistakes in this manner
just sitting in a circle with a few monks and he was just saying yeah you see if a monk does like
this then other monks feel like that and it was such a beautiful experience because i was able
to fully take in what he was saying without in the least feeling my ego getting hurt if he would
have said even us being alone leave alone others around Analeo you did this and that was not nice
and you shouldn't do that would have been a completely different picture so one point that
i think we can appreciate from this discourse is how how skillful an arahant can express criticism
the last discourses were showing us how an arahant reacts to criticism to false accusation
and Sari puta has been teaching us five ways of dealing with resentment and now by example he is
showing how one can express criticism which is necessary you have to tell people at that time i
needed to be told by another monk these were just small things but i still needed to be told that was
not that was not the way i should be doing it but this other monk was doing it in such a nice way i
never forget that it's a very beautiful experience i wish i could do it like that
yeah so now time for me to read the sutta for you
venerable friends uh forest dwelling monk when practicing forest dwelling should train in being
respectful and compliant when we're friends if a forest dwelling monks though practicing
forest dwelling is often disrespectful and not compliant he will incur other monks disapproval
and criticism as for this venerable forest dweller for the sake of what does he practice
forest dwelling why do we say this this venerable forest dweller even though he practiced though
practicing forest dwelling is often disrespectful and not compliant when he comes to stay amidst
the monastic community he will incur such disapproval and criticism from the other monks
therefore venerable friends a forest dwelling monk by practicing forest dwelling should train
in being respectful and compliant so this same basic pattern of pointing out
possible shortcomings and the way this will be perceived by others will then continue
for several other qualities but before that i just wanted to mention that this this idea
what do others think of me is a much more important component in an asian and in a monastic
setting than maybe in average western life this is actually a way of teaching if you live in a
monastery the way others teach you is at least in Sri Lanka is very much non-verbal it's just you
you do something and then you feel afterwards somehow something was not quite right and from
that you realize yourself if you are sensible enough the next time you do it differently and
you feel ah no there's no reaction by the others it is really a kind of energy work almost it
requires a lot of mindfulness and a lot of meta also and it's a very interesting way of teaching
is quite different from what we have and many young monks i experienced that myself
they come in they say look i don't know nobody's telling me what i should do and why are they not
pointing out the thing is that that way of teaching works works works works works differently
and it also has to do with this asian conception where one sees oneself more as part of a group
whereas in the west we are very much individuals and so if you say well they're criticizing so
their problem no that is that is not at all a point anyhow after this little explanation
now we have a look at all the qualities that are being taken up in the same manner
so besides what was the first again let me see oh yeah he should be respectful and compliant
so he should yeah he should i read this now for you again stewart says bunt it sounds like dog
training yeah i don't know about dog training stewart but if that's the way yeah obviously you
can't talk to them no using energy no words yeah that's actually a very nice example thank you
stewart yeah stewart has this very very nice examples he comes out with yeah i just wanted to
to share my my own experience and that i i found this a very beautiful way of learning even though
i am myself not very good at teaching in that way i am too blunt yeah but it's like dog training
yeah with the dog you have to you have to work on this energy level i mean you you can you can still
shout at it it can hear from the voice the sound of the voice whether you're angry or not but it
won't understand the words yeah good now i get into the qualities so he should our forest monk
should train in refraining from making frivolous jokes and from behaving in a restless and agitated
matter manner i'm sorry he should train in refraining from irrelevant talk a train in not
bragging about himself and not being chatty he should train in guarding the sense faculties
he should train in moderation in eating he should train in being energetic and free from laziness
he should train in right mindfulness and right attentiveness he should train in knowing the
proper time and being skillful in regard to time for example not going into the village to beg for
food too early and not returning too late he should train in knowing proper seats and being
skillful in choosing a seat not taking the seat of a senior monk or scolding and union monks for
taking the seat that he wants he should train in explaining and discussing the vineyard and the
higher dharma why when we're friends a forest dwelling monks when practicing forest dwelling
may encounter people who come with questions regarding the code of discipline and the advanced
teachings and he should train in explaining and discussing the peaceful liberations the attaining
of those formless concentrations that transcend form why when we're friends a forest dwelling monk
when practicing forest dwelling may encounter people who come with questions regarding the
peaceful liberations the attaining of those formless concentrations that transcend form
excuse me and he should train in explaining and discussing the higher knowledge of the
destruction of the influxes why when we're friends a forest dwelling monk when practicing
forest dwelling may encounter people who come with questions regarding the higher knowledge
of the destruction of the influxes so after we get this whole series of behaviors qualities
entertainments when Mahamogalana is there and he says when was I put on should only
force dwelling monks when practicing forest dwelling training these things and not monks
who stay among people when was sorry puta replied when Mahamogalana forest dwelling monks when
practicing forest dwelling should train in these things how much more so monks who stay among people
and then we get a final stanza the stanza is not found in the Pali be respectful refrain from
frivolous jokes do not engage in irrelevant talk and bragging guard the sense faculties be
moderate in eating be energetic and have right mindfulness and attentiveness know the time and
no proper seating discuss the code of discipline and the advanced teachings explain the peaceful
liberations and the higher knowledge of the destruction of the influxes or tents the asavas
yeah so we have this 13 qualities in the Madhyama Agama version the higher dharma is a chinese
rendering of the uh indic term abhidharma or abhidhamma which we find occurs on several occasions
in the early suttas but which does not yet stand for the type of thought that is now found in the
third of the three baskets yeah the immaterial attainments the peaceful liberations the arupas
i think that is clear yeah then here we get the it's too bad i can't make this bigger maybe i make
it a little smaller than it's easier to see no still well we got 17 qualities in the Madhyamanika
so we just have a look at them i think i make it bigger again than you can read easily i anyway
can't get it all to fit in the picture so being respectful this is quality number one in the
Madhyama Agama then propriety with seeds is number 10 you see again these variations in sequence
that those of you have been with me last year we encounter ever so often in oral transmission the
actual qualities are being remembered fairly well but the sequence in which they come
unless these are really fixed categories of doctrinal teachings the sequence just varies
the next is about going to the village and not paying visits this has no parallel in the Madhyama
Agama then we come number five not being arrogant number six no loose talk then number seven again
this has no real counterpart in the Madhyama Agama easily being spoken to and cultivating good friends
then again we get restraint of the senses and moderate with food these also are found in the
Madhyama Agama wakefulness number 10 in the Pali no parallel being energetic and mindful number seven
and eight in the Madhyama Agama concentrated and wise again not in the Madhyama Agama
and then we get the same here it's actually the higher Dharma and higher Vinaya so Abhidhamma
Abhidhamma Abhi Vinaya again the immaterial attainments and then superhuman states that is a
more general term which includes the destruction of the influxes the six supernormal knowledges I think
would be that is a little more broad and the distinction here is that while in the Madhyama
Agama our friend only needs to be able to discuss these here he should actually be practicing them
the Pali is Yoga Karaniyo he should apply himself to these
so overall we get a stronger flavor of mindful of meditation practice here you see we have
if we look back at the qualities wakefulness concentration and wise I mean concentrated and
wise would be included in the fact that somebody applies himself to immaterial attainments and to
superhuman states but not necessarily in the Madhyama Agama because there is only to be able
to discuss these although we would think in the ancient setting for somebody to discuss these
things they would have to have some practical experience we are not yet at the time when these
things are being discussed by scholars who have never ever sat on a meditation cushion
so the qualities overall are similar we see a gradual progression we see the
the Pali version gives us a slightly stronger flavor of meditation practice than the Madhyama Agama
yeah so there were some John Emmer he says it seems the first seven qualities in the Madhyama
Agama are about the forest monk when visiting the Sangha and the rest apply when he is on his own
is there a similar division in the Madhyama Nikaya that's a good point I hadn't noticed that
again see these courses are wonderful I'll learn so much from you
yeah good point you see in the in the Pali version there is this thing about being questioned
but we are not being told explicitly that this happens when he is in the forest
very keen observation John thank you very much when practicing forest dwelling yeah yeah yeah
I would I would now often interpret this to mean that
uh in when our forest dwelling monk visits the community he knows he's in danger of being
questioned but perhaps I mean this is just my offhand take on this observation which I had not
noticed before is that uh even when he's alone in the forest there are sometimes visitors who come
and this is actually quite true those who go all the way into the forest to visit a forest
monk are those who are interested in the practice they they will not come there to discuss politics
with him they will come there to ask this type of how do we get into jhana how how how does one get
stream into they will ask this type of questions so this is the way I would I would I would I would
take it that the magyama agama does not mean to say that the ability to discuss uh I just call it
briefly samad and vipassan to make it easy is going to be of relevance only when he is in the
forest but that it can also be relevant when he is in the forest not only when he exposes himself
to the situation of being in a city in the monastery but in the Pali version we do not get
this uh qualification it just says that uh he should yoga karaniyo because there are those who
ask him questions about these things excellent observation on so wayne show sounds like list
for discipline higher training i think you are right for the for the second part
yeah i think we are we are moving towards this this this this discipline higher training
but the early excuse me the early quality is be respectful and not joking and not talking rubbish
excuse me not being arrogant these are uh relevant to all of us not those who have entered
on the higher training and those who are fairly advanced in the higher training they might even
naturally not need that type of admonishment let me just see where the Pali starts
propriety yeah also being arrogant and loose talk that's a good point yeah definitely the
the later part is uh is gives us this feeling that the gradual path is progressing from the
average level of the practitioner towards the the the the discipline higher training
mark as johnson in the madhyama aga numbers two to six are about a monk coming out of the forest
having experienced deprivation there and is overindulging when back among the monks and
interacting with villagers that's a good point mark you see again something i learned today wow
you're wonderful lovely yeah yeah i'm sitting pretending to be the teacher and i'm just a student
great quite true actually it's quite true because this is something we can often see with
people who go for intensive meditation when they come out there's such an overreaction
they have to talk and get into doing and and there's a kind of a lack of balance there
and this is this is precisely the challenge this is always the challenge point when we
i mean i i i love going for retreats and i recommend everybody to do long and much retreats
but the challenge is always when you come out how are you able to balance the situation now
this is i think if i understand mark correctly this is what you're pointing at
where do i have them here yeah this is this is precisely you get agitated you talk about rubbish
you become chatty and arrogant your senses are not restrained and you fill yourself up with food
excellent excellent way in choice just saying right speech question mark
yeah i am i'm not sure i understand that comment way in show
that the issue of speech is being brought up with not talking about
irrelevant things which is one of the four forms of inappropriate speech
the others are not directly taken up
john emmer i actually had my observations labeled backwards it was the magi manika that said
when the force dollar comes to the sangha for the first seven and not the rest i didn't know
about the magi maga yeah john but that doesn't matter i mean the we we've got it clarified and
and the situation is very clear and that was a very keen observation
very good very helpful to to to get a clearer sense of that discourse
yeah i'm still with this this two to six and the the issue of coming from the forest and and and
then overindulging in the things of the world
yeah i do i have time for a little story i think i give a little story yeah i did a very long
retreat it was i think a one-month retreat in the desert in india and i was just completely
there was nothing i mean it's just everything is this beige color from the sand and and the only
color you could see were the peacocks that were coming in the early morning and sitting on top of
the meditation hall and spreading their their feathers everything else was just beige and the
fort was very simple just this rise and chapatis and dal and because that place i couldn't stay
longer so as soon as the retreat finished i had to go back to shrillanka and the flight the shrillanka
airline flight there was a strike by the pilots and so when i came to the airport i was told the
flight is canceled and we put you into a five-star hotel and so i had to spend the night in this
five-star hotel with all these colors and people and things and then the next morning there there
was this buffet and somebody was kind enough to offer me the food and it was just like i mean i
mean you're in india but that was like five different types of musli seven different types
of german bread and there was just everything in the world that you could think of and so i have
to admit that i was sitting those 30 days in the desert i had some time to time not been doing my
meditation properly but i've been thinking wouldn't it be nice to have a little bit of muslin
oh german bread with a little bit of cheese
and yeah i didn't i didn't after that buffet i had uh stomach cramps for the rest of my journey
and from that experience onwards i have no longer had problems doing meditation
it reads with thinking about food
sorry for this little story but mark's comment has just really hit me and so actually
it makes so much sense yeah enough about this another you and now
thanks mark i'm sometimes a little bit worried i'm talking too much fully stories about myself
and i should be sticking to the discourse and be a serious monk and university professor but
sometimes i just can't help okay the main points that we get out of this description as i said
before is this this concern for others this is first of all clear in the way sari puta gives this
teaching and also in these qualities that proper behavior towards others is is really an integral
part of the training and i wanted to bring up another discourse that illustrates that i
you excuse me for a second
and i have i have done a study i've done a study of that discourse and you find the pdf of the
article on the ollat page where the lectures are and you are free to download it there's no
copyright restriction on this pdf and so this discourse on the cow herd i find this uh this
fits in very nicely with our topic of the arahant and this idea that i want to
flesh out that the arahant in early Buddhism is not an egoist definitely not and this idea that
the arahant is selfish and not concerned about others is simply this is a rhetoric
that arouses at a very later stage in the history of Buddhist thought with its reasons and
conditions but this is not what we get into early suttas and so in the mahagopalika suttan
we get this description of the illustration of a cow herd a cow herd has to have certain qualities
he has to look after the cows in a certain way so that he does his job properly and similarly
there are these qualities that a monk should have again this doesn't oh no i'm getting it okay
and so we have 11 qualities he should have insight into the four elements his body made up of
earth water fire and wind he should know the difference between fool and wise foolishness
and wisdom he should remove unawesome states and he should restrain the senses number five he should
teach dharma to others number six he should also question others about the dharma and number seven
he should be inspired by the dharma number eight he should know the eightfold path number nine
he should know the four satipatanas the four establishment of mindfulness number 10 he should
be moderate with requisites and number 11 he should be having metta or respect towards elders
the same obviously applies for nuns yeah i just like to note that in this set of qualities
we very clearly have aspects that are concerned with others it is an integral aspect of this
description of the ideal monk or the ideal nun number five that he or she teaches the dharma to
others it is also an integral aspect of this description that he or she number 10 is moderate
with requisites this is a concern for the laity the laity are offering these things don't take
too much of them don't become a burden on them know what you really need and stop at that and
number 11 he or she should have meta or respect towards other monks or nuns towards elders
at the same time this whole set clearly puts the emphasis on personal development
see the majority of qualities are about one's own practice you should have insight into this
and that remove on wholesome states have sense restrained question others about the dharma etc
the gist of the practice the main weight not the gist the main weight of the practice lies on
oneself and this i think is the very nicely reflects what according to my understanding
is the basic position that early buddhism takes in this respect that it is important to work on
oneself and this should be given priority but part of that path of self-development
naturally and inevitably is to is with concern for others it naturally comes out of out of the
practice and it expresses itself somebody teaches more somebody teaches less somebody is more
respectful somebody is a little bit less respectful individual varieties are there but the basic
openness towards others is always there and i think this is a very important sketch we get
of the ideal mongol nan in in early buddhism and if you are interested in this in more detail
then you are welcome to take that pdf from the ular page you can copy it pass it around there's
no copyright restriction on that so before i get into madhyama agama 27 oh yeah i'm happy a few
students have said that they are not getting tired of this stupid stories i tell so i feel
that this is quite okay from time to time my little silly stories
bruini alisandra which is the right point of starting and teaching or eventually speaking
about dharma to others is there a point to do that the thing is a way to do that
i think there's a beautiful similarly in magimani kaya 9
or 8 salika sota 8 wrong cetacean magimani kaya 8 salika sota one who is himself or herself sinking
in the mud cannot pull out another only when you stand on firm ground are you able to pull
out others out of the mud so this doesn't mean to uh that you have to wait until you become an
other hunt but it means that as i also try to show with this listing first of all priority
has to be given to your own development you have to really grow and it is only when you are firmly
established in something that you will be able to convincingly teach that quality or that aspect
of the dharma to others you see i only get my own permission to sit here in front of you with
this camera and all this because i did all my years up in that cave uh in in thailand and also
in shrillanka doing a lot of practice and i still sometimes feel i don't know i should not just to
practice only but so there is a there's a there's a there's a need to to to establish yourself at
least one foot on firm ground before starting to pull out others there's this there's a problem in
this tendency to emphasize compassion as the outstanding quality a buddhist should have in
some buddhist traditions as it is a very beautiful quality but it needs to be established on a firm
foundation otherwise it it just turns in circles it becomes a samsara kind of thing
so the question is not for us to exaggerating now go to the next hospital and help all the sick people
which may at some point be an option but the question is really as these 11 qualities show
give priority to your own practice and within that dynamic of your own practice what naturally
without you being on the lookout for it what naturally manifests and from your inner feeling
of where you stand and what you're able to give feels appropriate to that extent you share with
others so you have that that basic openness towards that but you're not eager for it and
you you make sure you have at least one foot firmly on the ground well this is this is my
my personal take on this but i find that that simile of of not trying to pull out others from
the mud if you're sinking yourself because then both of you will just be sinking all the more
that simile is quite telling mark we can help by encouraging each other in practice even if you're
not fully awakened oh definitely yeah there's no question there's a helping encouraging each
other is no question i think alisandra was asking about teaching about taking the role of a guide
for others and there was also the responsibility that if i guide them wrongly i am responsible
for what happens this is a issue that should be based on having at least one foot on firm ground
yeah meta alisandra says meta
mark says if we cite the suttas in our encouragement they are the guide yeah that is that is that is
you're again hitting a point that i am this is this is this is central to what i do and to what i
like to transmit also in my meditation teaching in my writing in this course to enable us to
in my meditation teaching in my writing in this course to enable us to approach the suttas as our
teacher and to use these as our guide that is that is a very safe and a very successful approach i
have tried it out myself leechan why it sounds a bit selfish to me if i only consider it in my
practice and not spreading loving kindness through action
if you really concentrate on your practice then that will naturally express itself in anything you
do but if you just the other extreme just try to spread your loving kindness or compassion through
action and neglect your practice then there will be no real foundation and this will not
have long-term effects it is not a selfishness if a person who sees that other people are sick
does not immediately go there and try to help but says no let me first go to the university
and study medicine and when i have done my five years of medicine in my one year of practice i
will come back to this place that i visited here and i'll be really able to help these people out
of their illness this is not selfishness it is wisdom because if that person does not do his
or her medical studies he or she will not be able to really give the help the people need
there's a danger of becoming selfish about one's own practice and in that i respect i think you are
definitely right but the fact that priority is given to our own practice is in itself not
necessarily selfishness and it's good that you you you say that because this is a very
stereotype common perception because of this somewhat exaggerated emphasis on compassion
in some bodhis traditions
stewart i like the coward guarding the cows all the ganges yeah that's a that's also a beautiful
simile yeah we are actually we are moving in our discussion precisely in the direction that i want
to go with the next discourse which is on on which is the occasion i promised to many of you
last year that we will be discussing the actual practice of metta and of the brahma viharas
maybe at this point i am not going to go into the discourse because we only have a few more
minutes but i may be i finish the point i want to make on compassion
oh let me see wayne show has a practice out of compassion for people who have to put up with me
very much sir thank you so much for your lectures i will listen to your lecture recording later
connection keeps getting lost yeah no problem the thing is the thing is uh
yeah maybe i i just make my point on compassion then i don't need to make that next
lecture when we get into the magma magma 27 and then i can just speak about the actual meditation
practice you see uh in early buddhist thought compassion is always an integral aspect of the
four brahma viharas the four diviner boats so the first is metta i prefer the paali the standard
translation loving kindness or better would be benevolence the second is compassion the third
is mudita sympathetic or empathic joy and the fourth is equanimity and if you do a search
in the paali discourses in the chinese agamas as i said before this is a little bit more difficult
to do you will find that there is nearly there are very few references to karuna or anukampa
outside of this meditative context of the four brahma viharas and those that you find are often
related to the buddha like he should come or he should teach anukampangupada but we find a lot
of reference to mekta outside of the practice of the four brahma viharas and so the way i understand
this yes you see this um metta is basically a feeling of friendship a feeling of benevolence
towards those who are without any kind of hierarchy or those who are more or less at the same level
karuna compassion is predominantly a feeling towards those who are in an unfortunate situation
those who are in some way below me they are suffering and i am looking down full of compassion
and mudita sympathetic joy is something more directed towards those who are better or superior
to me it's a it's a kind of if i visualize it meta is on the level compassion is downwards
and mudita is upwards and all of these practice together is a very meaningful
there's a lot of balance in there and the the basis of that is this meta practice and this is
why we get all these different discourses on how to practice meta bodily speech verbal etc but if we
take compassion out of that context and do not base it on previous practice of meta and do not
complement it with later practice of mudita there's a problem there because we are practicing our
attitude only in the downward manner in the down looking manner and this is a natural
consequence of the historical development of buddhist thought where the buddha was us the buddha
being fully awakened was naturally full of compassion he was obviously superior to everyone
else so the idea of falling in the buddha's steps which is also in the teravada but particularly
prominent in the mahayana tradition made it naturally that this compassion quality became
more prominent and this feeling of wanting to be like the buddha but the problem is if you are not
an arahant yet but only on the path towards becoming a buddha or an arahant whatever and
you give so much importance to compassion without practicing the other qualities there is a slight
danger that this might not be totally balanced that this might come into developing a sense
of ego to some extent and we can see that like this whole hinayana rhetorics mahayana is just
better than hinayana is precisely a expression of conceit so i'm i'm obviously not saying all who
practice compassion are like this all mahayana nothing of that type i'm just saying that
from this is a for me a very important point to understand from the perspective of what i
understand from early buddhism compassion is best practiced is an integral part of the brahma viharas
in order to avoid that it becomes a lopsided development
yeah mark just adds that avaluki teshvara is the one who looks down that is precisely
the the idea you look down it's not the looking down which is disrespectful you look down with
compassion but there is still this feeling of looking down and if you balance that with
because your early practice that looking level through metta and after you do the looking
upwards mudita others are better than me there will be no problem this this this this safeguard
is built in the brahma vihara practice in early buddhism but once the compassion is taking out of
that context there can be that problem please please don't misunderstand me i'm not saying
there must be that problem i'm not saying it is wrong to have compassion i'm just trying to give
a perspective on compassion from my understanding of early buddhism and at this point i am coming to
the close of the lecture i've learned a lot from you this time i'm very grateful to all this
intelligent and nice comments and questions here and on the blog it's uh it's really wonderful and
i've been able to get rid of something that i personally think is quite important at the end
of this lecture i really look forward to see what all of you have to say to that and next time
we're going to go for magyama agama 27 and for how meditation on metta in the brahma vihara
is practiced in early buddhism thank you very much be well and see you in another week's time