So, welcome everybody, and this is the second lecture in my series on purification.
Ethics and Karma in Early Buddhist Discourse. Before I start to get into
the actual lecture there was a few minor things I wanted to say on the blogs. One
thing is that the way the blogs are being displayed it kind of the website
only seems to hold five blocks and so when for every new entry we create a
separate blog then those blogs that have been posted earlier they kind of
disappear. Therefore I would like to suggest that for lecture two and future
lectures I open a single blog for the whole lecture and any comments or ideas
or suggestions or questions you make you all post them under the same blog. Then
it's easy for all of us to see if something new has happened and we don't
have to start searching around for the earlier entries. And the second thing if
you are on the website under home and settings you can upload a picture of
yourself. I personally find it very nice if with the blog entries there's also a
picture it kind of makes the thing more personal. Yeah so now I am coming to the
actual lecture. First briefly I want to review what we did last time and then I
get into the next discourses. So last time I gave a short introduction on the
Madhyama Agama collection in general and then we had a look at the first two Madhyama
Agama discourses. Regarding my general introduction on the webpage I have
uploaded an article on the Madhyama Agama. In case you would like to get more
information on the Madhyama Agama you could just download that article and
read it. Now in the blog there have been a number of very useful and interesting
comments and some of them I replied directly but others I would like to take
up now for the benefit of everyone. So what I'm going to do is I'm going to
paste this into the chat see if that works. Yes so we are first looking again
at the Madhyama Agama number one discourse at those seven qualities and I
have them here on the blackboard. The first quality was good knowledge of the
Buddhist teachings and there was a very beautiful comment made by Linda Galas
that I would like to just share with all of you for the benefit of those who only
get the audiophile I'm now going to read this. She says the suttas are the
cornerstone of my practice. Reading and contemplating a sutta is a part of my
daily practice as is meditation and the attempt to put what I read and experience
in meditation into the context of daily life. Not reading the suttas is like
trying to get through a labyrinth blindfolded every step of the way
presents an obstacle. The suttas help on overcome the obstacles with eyes wide
open there are still more than enough difficulties. Relevance of course has
many facets and various levels but at the simplest level it just means reading
a sutta and contemplating the message putting what one has read and thinks one
has understood into the context of the moment. Like every good text one can read
the suttas again and again and with each reading one leans a tiny bit more of the
message. This coupled with experience and meditation helps open the door of
understanding a wee bit further. Yeah I think that gives us a very good feeling
why good knowledge of the Buddhist teaching knowledge of the suttas and
those other types of texts we had there last time are right at the top of that
listing of seven qualities. Then there was another comment I like to share with
you it goes on the whole set of seven qualities as you can see on the black
board and you might remember there was a listing of seven qualities the first
was to have good knowledge of the teachings then the second to understand
the meaning of what others say then to know the proper time for or during
meditation you had some slight differences there between the parallel
versions then to be restrained in behavior or else to be moderate with
requisites also there we had some differences to know one's own strength
and weakness to be able to adopt one's behavior and to know how to progress to
what is superior. Now Manfred Wiesberger and Andrea Feller they have been working
out a little bit more correlations of these seven qualities and the original
idea was to correlate them with the Eightfold Noble Path and with their
Padamis and I have added to that a little bit because the Padamis
are not found in the early discourses the whole idea that there are certain
qualities that we have to develop now so that in some very distant time in the
future we will be able to walk the path to awakening is not really found in the
earliest strata of text and so to use the Padamis is very meaningful from a
practical perspective but in my personal feeling to understand the discourse it
is important that we always stay within the same historical level that we use
not the commentaries later ideas but we use the ideas from the discourses
itself to understand the discourses this is why I have edited that entry a little bit
so if we look at these seven qualities what we have the first one I think we already said that
is that good knowledge of the teachings is somewhat similar to right view
then Manfred Wiesberger and Andrea Feller they suggest that the second quality to know the
meaning is to be able to see beyond words seeing the needs and intentions of others
seeing the implications of what is said and done and they see a relationship
between this and the second path factor of right intention
then the next one
to know oneself yeah actually it comes in a slight it's I think this is the Pali sequence
doesn't matter to know oneself this is
number five in the Madhyama Agama realistic self-evaluation without self-depreciation or
hybrids knowing and minding one's own business working from where one is right mindfulness
and right effort are the two path factors that they see particularly related to this
then to know restraint and moderation this is quality number four in the Madhyama Agama listing
understanding that happiness is not to be found in material things how true
understanding the limitation of sense experience
and they see this as related to right intention and right mindfulness
to know the time that is something I should also do
and that is the number three in the Madhyama Agama
time to talk time to be silent time to look inward time to look outward to act to observe
and they see this as right mindfulness right concentration but also right speech and right action
now we come to knowing assemblies I have it here number quality number six able to adopt one's
behavior being able to move freely and comfortably around different strata and subcultures in a
society and adapt one's behavior accordingly right speech right action right livelihood
and to know distinctions this is in my listing of the Madhyama Agama is number seven know how to
progress to what is superior the ability to recognize individual strength and weaknesses
knowing that the person has many different aspects right view and right mindfulness
and then I think a very nice comment from Andrea Falla again she says I often find in
reflecting on these lists that as one cultivates one factor all the others are also pulled along
for the ride so I think this very interesting correlation that has been offered to us here
I think we should not take it too literal that it means only this particular path factor and
none others is relevant but just as a as some way of giving us a practical feeling for these
different aspects yeah I not sure if I should stop here now and give time for some questions
or if I may go on to one more point that certainly will call up a number of questions
maybe I just have a short look if there's anybody who would like to say or write something then
please type in the chat box and at some point we might also try this direct speaking with the
hand raising which on an earlier start we tried it didn't work so well but I think we should from
time to time also try that out and I also wanted to say for those of you who are not too
comfortable with using English that I'm happy if you're writing in German or and then anyway I
have to repeat what you write in the chat box for the oral record so I could always translate that
but as there seems to be no questions then I go to the next comment
this is by Chah Nida Jantra Sri Salai
and it's about the two qualities where we have some differences between the
Magyama Agama and the Anguttara Nikaya version that was about knowing time and knowing restraint
and Chah Nida points out that the Magyama Agama Sutra seems to be more focused on meditative
practice than the Anguttara Nikaya does the monks are taught to be mindful at all times and in all
activities and I found this a very pertinent comment because in my comparative studies
I found a lot of variations between suttas but very rarely only significant differences in terms
of content or way of presentation but one of the differences is the nuance of difference that I
found and now I'm going to go into this a little more I hope you can see the pdf that is moving up
if anything doesn't work then please let me know one of the relatively few market differences I
found between Pali discourses in particular the Magyama Nikaya which was what I studied and Chinese
and other palates is that there seems to be a slightly stronger emphasis on meditation
in general in Chinese Agamas compared to Pali discourses so I am now going to give you a few
examples of this the first example they all come from the Magyama Nikaya the first example is the
Chulagusingha Sutra this is a discourse which describes the monk Anuruddha and to other monks
how they are living together in harmony and the description is very beautiful it shows how they
help each other and are very harmonious there's an image that says that they they blend like milk
and butter and each of them is putting his own wishes at the back and is really concerned about
doing things in such a way that the others are fine with it and part of their conduct is that
they usually don't really talk to each other so even if they have to like they're describing that
for example the water the drinking water needs to be filled they just give signs to each other by
hand without starting to talk because of such a thing but every five days they meet and have a
Dharma discussion the Magyama Agama parallel in the description of how they clean up after they
have had their meal also explicitly says that these monks then take their sitting mats and go
to a secluded place to meditate and it says that when they meet every five days they either meditate
together in silence or else discuss the Dharma so we find in the in the description I mean it's
very clear that these monks are deeply meditating practitioners but we find in the Magyama Agama
description this meditative flavor becomes just a little bit more prominent my next example is the
Dheganaka Sutta this is a discourse that reports how Sariputta attained full awakening
Sariputta is one of the two achieved disciples of the Buddha it's quite a number of them but these
two Sariputta Mahamogallana is perhaps the most famous and outstanding ones
and he was listening to a discourse given by the Buddha to a wanderer a paribhajika by the name of
Dheganaka and we have a number of parallels to this discourse in the two Samyukta Agamas
we have a two translation of the Samyukta Agama one complete one and one partial one
and they seem to stem from slightly different but related transmissions we have a Sanskrit
fragments of this discourse and we have a version in the Mula Sarvastivada Vinayana
this part is preserved in Tibetan and each of these parallel versions they do not only describe
that Sariputta became an Arahant while he was listening to the discourse but they indicate that
after listening to the discourse he actually meditated he contemplated on impermanence and
after that he became an Arahant so here again we find that there's a slightly stronger meditative
flavor
the Dhammachaitya sutta is another discourse in the Majimani Kaya and it describes a situation
where king Pasinadi is traveling with two of his attendants two courtiers
and they put up in the same room so the king can see what they these two are doing during the night
and according to the Pali account the two the whole night are discussing the Dharma
from other discourses we know that these two attained stream entry and they passed away as
once returners so they would have had good reason to discuss the Dharma now the Manyama Agama parallel
they spent the first part of the night in silent meditation
in this case however we find that we also have a version of this discourse in the
Mullah Sarvasivada Vinaya and this time preserved in Chinese and in Tibetan and it agrees with the
Pali version since it reports that the two courtiers were discussing they were discussing
the qualities of the Buddha the Dharma and the Sangha
the Dhananjani sutta it reports that the brahmin Dhananjani was reborn in the Brahma heaven
after getting an instruction by Sariputta on the Brahma viharas the Brahma viharas are the four
diviner bolts of loving kindness compassion sympathetic joy and equanimity
the Magyama Agama parallel which otherwise is fairly similar explicitly says that he actually
practiced these he practiced these Brahma viharas and he overcome sensuality and there on he was
reborn in the Brahma world again we find there's just a more meditation flavor to it it's not
just listening to the discourse also he practices the Upakileser sutta it describes a visit paid
by the Buddha to a monk by the name of Bhagav and in the Pali version the Buddha basically he comes
to the monk and asks him are you doing fine and do you have no problem to get arms food and Bhagav
says I'm fine and I have no problems to get arm food but in the Magyama Agama parallel the Buddha
asked him are you living at ease and Bhagav answers by giving a whole description of his meditation
practice how he is energetically practicing developing concentration and practicing the
factors leading to awakening none of these is found in the Pali version and my last example
is from the Nandakovara sutta here the monk Nandaka who has just been told by the Buddha
that he should be giving a teaching to the nuns and so he goes the next morning collects arms in
town eats them and then he goes to the nuns quarters to give a teaching here we have a parallel
in the Samyukta Agama preserved in Chinese and again in the Moolam Savastivadavinaya this time
Chinese and Tibetan and these versions say that after he had gotten his arms and taken his meal
before he goes to the nunnery he sits for some time in meditation
yeah that was a rather long comment by me on a short indication given by Chaneda Jantra
Sri Salai that I think this is a persistent characteristic that in the Pali discourses
these are just nuances I mean but still there is one gets a stronger meditative flavor let me say
like that when one reads the Madhyama Agama discourse compared to when one reads the Pali version
yeah I again want to stop for a moment and see if there are any comments or questions
so
so here's a comment by Linda there are so many general comments about meditating in
the Majimani Kaya one often reads monks meditate meditate before it is too late etc nothing really
specific but often yeah definitely I'm certainly not saying that meditation is absent from the
Pali discourses or from the Majimani Kaya and meditation is throughout central in all of the
early discourses my point was mainly based on on this topic of what differences we get when we
compare parallel versions and there are no major differences we suddenly discover there was never
any for noble truth or the Buddha told us to enjoy sensuality in order to go to wing any of
this but there are some slight nuances and it is difficult for us to know which is the more original
one and I have very few of these real tendencies that I can actually show up after doing
eight years of comparative studies with the whole Majimani Kaya 400 parallels I mean I have
gone through a lot of material but one of those few tendencies that I did notice is precisely
what has been mentioned and what I myself didn't notice when we were discussing the Majima Agama
number one last time but what fortunate Echanida Jantra Sri Salai has brought to our notice
that there is just a slight nuance towards making meditation somewhat more explicit
so there's no question that say pai discourses are against meditation and the others are in favor
of meditation or something like that it's just these are just very slight nuances that I'm
I'm just highlighting yeah
yeah is it possible Andrew asked the question is it possible the school where the Majima Agama
Chinese Majima Agama is from was more into meditation it's a good question the thing is
the Sarvastivadin school which as far as we know is the school that transmitted the Chinese Majima
Agama there seems to they seem to have a strong trend towards meditation that is true
and yeah but still the Majima Agama is not really it's not really from a school yeah it's
not it's not it's not a product of a school or a a product of Chinese Buddhism or whatever it is
actually a a a a collection that has been already transmitted and so the school affliction I mean
it's definitely a good point that somehow those who transmitted the collection had maybe a stronger
interest in meditation and so it was more natural for them to emphasize these things or keep them
in mind as they transmit the discourses yeah I think that is the way we can we can put it
good point
okay so there is Anna and is there a learning or some sort of academic consensus on which
of the two is earlier and if I understand you correctly you mean the which of the two collections
is earlier can can you in some way indicate which of the two you mean do you mean the
Majima Agama compared to the Majima Nikaya collection
or the tool you mean the two leanings in the sense of either giving emphasis to meditation
or giving emphasis giving less emphasis to meditation
I personally think that at the earliest stage meditation was very central
this is the flavor that we get from the early discourses and I would think that in time this
sometimes was lost out of sight but and then in other times it also emerged again so we sometimes
have a kind of a revival of the meditative tradition and the meditation in the earlier
stages of Buddhism as far as we can tell from the text it seems to be closely related to some
degree of learning in the sense that the development of insight and tranquility in the
early discourse is not so much a question of practicing a particular technique but rather of
deepening certain key aspects of the Dharma one is learned through meditative practice
but in the Theravada tradition we know that by the time when the discourses were handed
down to Sri Lanka there was a problem to ensure their transmission and there was a historical
decision taken to give emphasis to learning over practice with the argument that if we maintain
the transmission of the discourses alive future generations will have access to the Dharma and be
able to develop their practice if we emphasize just on our own practice we might get somewhere
but the future is lost but this decision was taken historically at a time too late according
to my understanding to be still able to influence the the discourses yeah so if there's no more
questions we can come to the result of these seven qualities
there's a comment by Andrea Fella that I would like to share with you
so she says
yeah perhaps maybe first just recollect the was a slight difference in the presentation of the
results of these seven qualities where we find that the Madhyama Agama version says that
somebody who has these seven qualities gains joy and progresses to awakening
but the Anguttara version says someone who has these seven qualities becomes worthy of support
and a source of merit now Andrea Fella she says regarding the different perspective of the
two versions of the Sutta with the Madhyama Agama being more focused on qualities that lead towards
liberation and the Anguttara Nikaya being focused on qualities that make one a beneficial field of
merit I am curious if perhaps the collection the suttas appear in might partly account for this
difference in focus the Anguttara Nikaya has quite a number of suttas that seem to be relevant to
householders at the time of the Buddha was the teaching about practicing for the sake of merit
rather than for liberation more directed towards householders than monastics
yeah this is a very very interesting aspect to look at there are there are again these are again
nuances regarding the four collections and the emphasis given in them respectively
before I go into that I think I need to generally state there is no clear cut distinction this is only
for lay people this is only for monks and there has been in the past the idea by some scholars that
lay people are only given talks on merits that's it and the path to liberation is only for monastics
and this is not correct there are quite a number of seriously and intensively practicing
lay disciples who reach various stages of awakening and I have recently published a
paper on the Anata Pinnikavada Sutta in Majimani Kaya where I tried to show this that lay people
were also given rather deep instructions on insight nevertheless there is a clear
difference in their respective interests that is when somebody gets really inspired in the
discourses by the buddhist teachings and wants to do all-out practice then he or she will naturally
chose the monastic path because that was at that time the most suitable and meaningful way of
practicing therefore when lay people are the audience it seems that with some exceptions
the interest is more towards the more worldly aspects of the dharma which are also there and
also important such as the making of merit so we can expect from a discourse given to an audience
of householders that topics such as merits will be more prominent than from a discourse given to
monastics but again these are just just nuances now on the four collections what I have for you
is one there is a an indication given in a text called the Vinayavibhajha this is from the
Sarvastivada tradition and preserved in chinese
and it makes certain statements on each of the four collections I have rearranged the sequence
so it corresponds to the sequence in which we are familiar with the four collections from the
Pali canon so it tells us that the durga the collection of long discourses is mainly to
confront outsiders the middle collection offers profound doctrines for intelligent people
and is therefore employed by those under training
the samyukta this is a collection that goes according to topics the durga is just the very
long discourses and the madhyama or madhyama the middle long discourses the samyukta collection
sets forth various meditations and is therefore made use of by meditators
and the kotarikora or anguttara collection this is a collection that collects discourses that have
a number in common in discourses that has items number one i two three four up to eleven this is
just another way of organizing a collection of discourses the kotarika collection is for the
sake of gods and men and is therefore used by preachers if we look at the collections now in
the Pali canon i i i i find this this this comment is is quite meaningful in the diga in
the collection of long discourses we get this very long discourses which are often given to
those who are not yet buddhist and a scholar by the name of joy manet has documented this
and says that the long collection is mainly for i don't know if i can pronounce this properly in
english now proselyting it means for the conversion purposes for introducing those who are
new to the teaching to the teaching of the buddha and to the superiority of the buddha
then the middle long discourses
is another german scholar who has pointed out that words like vinaya vineti or sikati to
train are very often found in the middle long discourses and we have in fact a number of
discourses that are entirely on vinaya matters and my own personal feeling is also when somebody
is interested in intensive study i recommend the middle long discourses that really gives
a very good grounding in those things that for those who already consider themselves buddhist
or wanting to walk the buddhist path gives them an overview of the central aspects and the samyuta
i remember when bhikkhu bodhi was translating the samyuta i once asked him what he felt about it
and he said that after the magima gives a first overview the samyuta is like a selection of
close-ups obviously because it sets certain themes like on mindfulness
on on the eightfold noble path or whatever then the discourses they're collected are
really condensed on one topic and show it from all different kind of perspectives
but in this way it is really useful for using the teachings for meditation purposes
and in the ekottarika or anguttara collection i found
personally by research and this is i have this right at the bottom that i found three times as
many discourses related to anata pindika the famous householder who donated jita's grove to
the buddha then in all the other three nikayas together so that the anguttara or enkottarika
is a is a is a collection where we get quite a number of different things but there is a lot for
lay people there and there's another thing from the pali commentary tradition this is from the
sumangala vilassini the commentary on the diga nikaya it indicates that when the buddha had
passed away no not when the buddha when the buddha had passed away and the discourses were
being distributed that chief disciples or their followers some of them had already passed away
were responsible for the transformation of each collection so it says the diga
the collection of long discourses was given to ananda and his followers
and ananda is the the way he is being described in the discourses he's a very devotional person
person he's some very devoted to the buddha the greatness of the buddha and this is the theme of
the diga of the long collections if we want to give it a theme and then the middle long discourses
were given to sari putta sari putta is one of the two chief disciples i mentioned earlier and he is
he stands specifically for wisdom he was outstanding in wisdom and one discourse
indicates that he was in particular responsible for leading disciples to stream entry
and yeah if you ask me which of the four collections you want for that purpose i would
probably point out for the middle long discourses it really sets sets you on the path
then for the samyutta collection according to this commentary explanation the mahakasapa and his
disciples were responsible mahakasapa is a monk in the thought world of early buddhism who stands
for austerity and intensive practice i think he's really he's really intense we can say
and the samyutta is also intense and really goes for one subject and really goes through with it
the last angutta collection is associated with animal anuruddha there i am not entirely clear
on this relationship anuruddha was also one of the chief disciples he was particularly famous
for a supernatural ability see which allowed him to see things happening in heaven and in other
realms perhaps we should understand that this ability gave him the material to preach on these
issues which again might have been of considerable interest for laity but i think monks were also
interested in that so with the last one i am not entirely sure but anyway if we look at this
we see there is from the perspective of the savasya vada tradition from the perspective
of the terabara tradition there are different flavors to these four collections and so the
reply i would like to give to that comment made by andrea fella is that yes the thing that we
noticed fits those flavors to some extent the madhyama agama compared to the angutta
there is one more comment also on these seven on the results of these seven this is by kucharski
piotr just go back to the seven so we can see it better and he says i'd like to comment on
different perspectives in madhyama agama and angutta nikaya on the results rising from development
of the seven qualities from my understanding it's really not all that different because as
i see it being worthy of offerings and being unsurpassed field of merit for the world
is actually being members of the ariya sangha the noble community of those who have reached
different stages of awakening that's how sangha is often described in the suttas
so in my opinion what the angutta nikaya is saying is that when one develops the seven
qualities one actually works towards liberation then as a noble person one becomes a field of
merit for other people i think this is very nice because it helps us again to come back to what is
essential there are differences they are phrased differently and i think i have i hope i have been
able to show that there is some some slight nuances to the different collections but in
the end if we really look closer here they say closely similar things
yeah at this point again i would like to invite any kind of questions
or comments
and i already take up the next discourse in the meantime
yeah you have still time to write your comments if you like on what i said so far i just want to
quickly browse through the second discourse which we looked at last time because there is a
curious technical problem that we have that whereas it seems that to me and to those who
were present life at the last lecture the discourse number two was visible in the video it was not
visible so i'm just briefly displaying it and to hope that this time it can be seen by everybody
yeah and you might remember that was this image of the coral tree in the in one particular
heavenly realm the heaven of the 33 and it had these images for different stages
the withering leaves for leaving the household and then buds growing in different stages for
the levels of absorption attainment and the flowers in full bloom for awakening
and there was just one comment by claudine discala which i thought was very nice
she says in the simile of the coral tree i was most struck by the idea that the average
everyday household or untrained mind can grow and blossom into the arahant in the simile it is all
coming from the same tree in different stages i thought i was a very beautiful point to make
and i just wanted to share that with you if there are any
if there are any more questions on these various points i made today i took a little more time to
go through the blog comments i found some of them nice to say something i would anyway would
have wanted to say and also it is nice that all those who are not able to be present life are
giving their input if there's no further comments i would then go for the next discourse
i'll just clear out the chat
yeah looks like there are no questions so i just continue talking in the hope that i'm not
boring you too much we come to chapter number three discourse number three the discourse on
the simile of the citadel we are getting another simile the parallel is the nagarupa massuta
among the seventh of the anguttara so i read thus have i heard at one time the buddha was staying
at savati in jeter's grove on art epindicus park at that time the blessed one addressed the monks
if a king's border town is equipped with seven things and obtains easily and without difficulty
an abundance of four types of supplies then this king's border town will not be wiped out by
outside enemies but only by internal self-destruction yeah it's just a simile
there's a few minor differences in this simile in the anguttara nikai i will not mention
all of them but one is for example that in the anguttara we are only told that these
seven things and four supplies will help so that the border town will not be attacked by outsiders
but the anguttara does not speak of internal self-destruction
so what are the seven things with which the king's border town is equipped
first of these is a watchtower has been constructed built firmly in the indestructible
the second a moat has been excavated very deep and wide well designed and reliable
the third the town is surrounded by a road that is open and clear level and wide
number four the town has raised an army with the four divisions elephant troops cavalry chariot
troops and infantry five the town is provided with weapons bows and arrows swords and spears
number six a general has been appointed as gatekeeper one who is sharp witted and wise in making
decisions brave and resolute of excellent council who allows entry to the good and keeps out the
bed and the seventh quality a higher ampert has been constructed extremely solid plastered with
mud and painted with whitewash all of these are to ensure peace within and to control outside
enemies there's a few minor difference in the anguttara then the paali version does not tell
us that the arm is fourfold or the gatekeeper is not explicitly said to be a general but i think we
need not bother about these small differences the only one that i think is noteworthy is again a
difference in sequence as you see in the file here qualities four and five and the corresponding
explanations have swapped places which is the original sequence no idea
which is the original sequence no idea
does it have any effect on the meaning i don't think so it's just one of these natural occurrences
in in oral transmission that things are remembered and usually the beginning and
the end part is remembered better but somewhere in the middle they just swap places
so besides those seven qualities
we have the four kinds of supplies that the king's border town needs to have in abundance
so the first or a is
it is provided with
there's a question i want to first reply to that the question is internal self-destruction
reminds on the things that the buddha said keep the lychavis from being conquered by ajata sattu
yeah yeah that's quite true it could be that some political event of this type has led to a
commentary on this discourse and in the course of transmission this has then become part of the
discourse itself so the four kinds of supplies that the king's border town should have in
abundance it should have plenty of water grass and firewood it should have harvested plenty of rice
and stored of plenty of wheat it should have plenty of grains and beans of various sorts
and it should store um ghee honey sugar cane sugar fish salt and dried meat
so now we come to the meaning of the simile
in the same way if a noble disciple gains seven wholesome qualities and attains four
higher states of mind easily and without difficulty then for this reason the noble
disciple will be beyond the reach of king mara will not be influenced by evil and unwholesome
states will not be defiled by defilements and will not be born again how does a noble
disciple gain seven wholesome qualities the first is he has or she has firm faith that is deeply
settled in the tathagata faith with firm roots that cannot be influenced by evil and unwholesome
settled in the tathagata faith with firm roots that cannot be influenced by non-buddhist becluses
or brahmins or by gods maras brahmas or anyone else in the world
the second is that the noble disciple has at all times a sense of shame what is shameful
he knows is shameful namely evil and unwholesome states which pollute and defile
which have various evil consequences and create the root cause of birth and death
and the third quality the noble disciple continuously fears wrongdoing what is wrong
he knows is wrong namely evil and unwholesome states and we get the same as above which pollute
and defile which will have various evil consequences and create the root cause of birth and death
the fourth quality the noble disciple continuously applies effort cutting off what is evil and
unwholesome and cultivating wholesome states he constantly arouses his mind is single-minded
and steadfast regarding the roots of wholesomeness without giving up his task
the fifth quality he studies wildly and learns much retaining it and not forgetting it
accumulating wild learning of what is called the dharma which is good in the beginning
good in the middle and good in the end which has proper meaning and expression
is endowed with purity and reveals the holy life in this way he studies widely and learns much
regarding all the teachings familiarizing himself with them even a thousand times
considering and contemplating them with knowledge vision and profound penetration
the sixth quality the noble disciple continuously practices mindfulness
achieves right mindfulness always recalling and not forgetting what was done or heard long ago
and the seventh quality the noble disciple develops comprehension and wisdom attains
understanding concerning the rise and fall of phenomena attains noble penetrative knowledge
and discriminative understanding concerning the true cessation of suffering
yeah it's not any differences with the Pali version that I think we need to discuss
for example quality number five the Pali counterpart is a little bit less detailed but
the main gist is the same yeah and the four higher states of mind that the noble disciple
attains are the first second third and fourth absorption
so question aren't these qualities inherent in being a noble disciple if so why point them out
um noble disciple are they inherent in a noble disciple not sure if all of them are inherent
yeah he would have or she would have faith
maybe some of them are present in a budding stage and need to be further encouraged
and quality number four it seems that a noble disciple can also be negligent so for him or her
to develop effort is not something I would think as inevitably included in being a noble disciple
which often but not exclusively in the discourses refers to those who have attained the stages of
awakening but not always the case the noble disciple also need not necessarily be one who
studies wildly he or she might have just learned very little
he or she should be having some mindfulness but whether that is continuous or not is a question
that we all are facing in our practice I believe yeah and the wisdom of understanding the rise and
fall of phenomena there must be some initial insight into impermanence otherwise one would
not become a noble disciple in the sense of attaining stream entry but penetrative full
insight into impermanence and it's leading on to the true cessation of suffering one would have
to be an arahant I think and yeah regarding the absorptions this is um much discussed practice
that your question is leading me to the relevance of the absorptions for progress through the stages
of awakening and I have discussed that in my satipatana book to some extent as far as I can see
the first two stages of awakening do not necessarily require the ability to attain
absorption so our noble disciple would not necessarily have to be one who attains the first
or even the second third and fourth absorption and my personal hold on the situation is that
it is for the sake of non-return and full awakening that one needs to develop have developed the
absorptions but I think I stop at this point otherwise we will see if there's interest we
can discuss that in more detail so in the case of all these four absorptions the noble disciple
is abiding in a happiness that lacks nothing I like that very much a peaceful happiness that
leads naturally to nirvana this is what the buddhist said having heard the buddhist words
the monks were delighted and remembered them well and andrew says this seems like the five faculties
of faith energy mindfulness concentration and wisdom um I assume you're speaking about the seven
so we have the faith here under the first quality we have the energy under the fourth
we have mindfulness under six
we have wisdom under seven and where did I lose concentration our concentration is obviously the
other four higher states of mind definitely yeah a very good point yeah well done
yeah so here we come now to the main points there's one difference that I just like to mention
presentation the the way of presenting what otherwise is fairly similar differs between
magyama agama and anguttara because the chinese version it just lists the seven qualities and
these four higher states and then after them correlates them with the simile the anguttara
gives each quality together with the simile it says the firm faith is like the watchtower
and the sense of shame is like this so they are both saying the same but the structure of how
they say it is different this is another very very very typical thing that we get in oral
transmission but anyway both discourses agree on the meaning on the correlation of this simile of
the border town with these different qualities so the firm faith is like this watchtower or pillar
at the entrance of the city the sense of shame is like the moat and fear of wrongdoing like the road
that goes around the town the effort is like armies the armies in the chinese we had the
fourfold armies elephants horses infantry and chariots wide learning is like armory
like the spears and bows and whatever
mindfulness is the gatekeeper the famous gatekeeper simile
and wisdom is the rumpered
and then with the absorptions we get the correlation with the four provisions
water grass and wood is the first rice and wheat the second grain beans the third and ghee honey
the fourth absorption at this point i would like to invite your comments or questions on this
main points any of these correlations that you find interesting anything you might like to add
and the question i always have at the end of a discourse in some way
can we can we can we relate this to our practice to our everyday life can we make sense out of it
does noble disciples in this sutra refer to those who have achieved the first state of enlightenment
and the noble disciple in the previous sutra refer to general buddhist who intend to follow the path
yeah in in its general use in the sutras the noble disciple often has that nuance of meaning
somebody who has at least achieved or is at least on the path to stream entry but it is not always
entirely so so we so we cannot fix it down we we should have the the idea that the noble
disciple is the opposite to the ignoble non-disciple that is the noble disciple is somebody who
has certain basic ethic qualities and will keep some basic ethic conduct and often
is one or who has practiced to such a degree that he or she is on the path
to stream entry or has attained stream entry but this is not invariably so the case
yeah so maybe i say a little bit more on this simile uh so what what strikes me is that the
the faith is like a pillar which is deeply embedded in the earth and that gives me this
feeling of firm roots and shame and wrongdoing they they they they create a protective space
around an effort the armies this is what with what we we move forwards and learning
uh it's like uh i i find the image of the armory helpful it gives me this idea that the more i i
i have real learning than in any situation i'm able to to to to to to take hold of what i need
it's like i i mean in this bottle battle situation i don't know but i suppose uh in one situation
one needs a sword in another one one needs maybe a bow to shoot and the more of armory one has the
better one can react yeah the simile of mindfulness as a gatekeeper occurs also elsewhere this this
kind of screening function of mindfulness and wisdom as the rampant but here's a comment
mode is at the very bottom one's consciousness
for ottapa the german has a high and broad path that leads around for observation which makes
sense because ottapa looks towards looks forward towards the wise would say yeah yeah that that that
that that ability to observe and that that feeling of space we get
by shame and wrongdoing yeah thank you
yeah and with the absorptions i mean there's not so much to say but um
um we see that the s going through the full absorption is uh progressively refined so also
the supplies we get the first are the basic water grass and wood and for the fourth absorption then
we get ghee and honey which in ancient india were considered a superior foods that one only gets on
special occasions
while some people are typing i just make a small technical announcement if you are getting thrown
out of the session from time to time then i was told by the technical people that this is maybe
because you're using a wireless and if if you if you use a normal line connection that should not
happen so there's a comment by andrew in this chinese soot in the fourth jani it says with the
in the fourth jani it says with the previous passing way of joint displeasure i don't really
understand this sentence this is a standard description of the fourth jana we have the same
also in the in the pali version it says so with the overcoming of happiness and pain
with the coming to an end of earlier joy and displeasure
with the neutral feeling he or she dwells having attained the fourth jana so that is
a standard description which shows that with the fourth absorption all
mental or physical pleasure or pain dichotomy is left behind there is pure pure neutrality in this
experience
we should at some point go more into the janas i think but maybe when we get a little further
and we come across the janas we can take a closer look at what they mean there is
no difference in the description of the four janas between the chinese agamas and the pali discourses
he says i'll have to achieve the fourth jana to know what it means by previous joy and displeasure
if you can that's the best solution
but yeah we i think we leave it at that the previous joy and displeasure just refers to
what you experienced previous to entering the fourth jana so this can cover pre-jana stages
but also in the janas so there there is some differences in interpretation about at what
jana what factor is left behind and offhand what i recall is one explanation but that might not be
the one from the pali tradition i'm not sure but i believe the idea is that the displeasure
there is a slight nuance of displeasure still in the first absorption because the
depth of concentration is maintained by two factors vitaka and vichara initial and sustained
mental applications and so because of having to maintain the concentration there's a slight
wobbliness to the experience and this is just a nuance of displeasure and the joy would
joy would be somanasa so i assume that would correspond to petey and petey as rapture is a
experience a condition of the mind experienced in the first and second absorption but is left
behind with the attainment of the third absorption but if you can achieve the experience
yourself you will be able to answer the question better than me i think there's another comment by
lynda sense of shame and fear of wrongdoing seem more like something that counterbalance the others
by stressing a certain sort of modesty yeah that's actually true yeah yeah yeah i see the
point very good fear and shame they hold back the others are moving forward there's the faith
effort mindfulness wisdom yeah very nice
what really strikes me is this wide learning and armory that that i i found because in my
own experience when i when i had become a monk in the beginning i was just meditating and i thought
all this theoretical concern with the suttas is for those who don't really want to meditate
and i did not make particularly much progress and after getting into some study of the suttas
i found that really gives me the armory the weapons i mean i don't like to think of meditation
in terms of fighting and weapon but in this simile this is what it gives us that some some
learning of the discourses and trying to understand as them really gives me the tools
to deal with difficulties in meditation
there's another comment here by minefred the simile shows the amount of work that is needed
to fortify oneself against mara's armies yeah yeah just like the town on the border place where
most easily the enemies will attack and so it needs all these protective measures and in our
attempt to progress on the path we we we are like like in a border town yeah
so i think i'll go still for the for the next sutta
this is a discourse on the water simile and there's basically almost no differences that i found
worthwhile noting between the chinese and the pali version so i read to you thus have i heard
at one time the buddha was staying at savati in jeta's grove on arta pindigus park
at that time the blessed one addressed the monks i shall teach you about seven persons in the water
listen closely listen closely and pay careful attention the monks listen to receive instruction
this is a standard phrase that we get very often so the buddha said what are the seven and now i am
abbreviating one person remains lying in the water another person surfaces but then sinks again
excuse me another person surfaces and remains standing in the water
another person surfaces and remains standing in the water another person surfaces and
having remained standing observes another person surfaces and having observed
crosses over towards the farther bank another person surfaces and having crossed over
reaches the farther bank another person surfaces and having reached the farther bank is called a
person dwelling on the farther bank the buddha says i have taught him brief the simile of seven
people in the water as it has been set out and described above do you know what its meaning is
how to explain it and what its moral is the monk said to the blessed one the blessed one is the
source of the dharma the blessed one is the master of the dharma the dharma comes from the blessed
one may he explain it having heard we will come to know its meaning fully yeah this question and
answer exchange is not found in the Pali version with the buddha just on his own continuous straight
away to give an explanation of what this simile is about so the buddha says again listen closely
and pay careful attention i shall explain the meaning to you and the monks listen
the buddha said what is the meaning of the person that remains lying here a person is
obstructed by unwholesome states defiled by defilements and experiencing the consequences
of evil states which create the root cause for birth and death what is the person who
having surfaced sings again here a person has surfaced by gaining faith in the true dharma
keeping the precepts practicing generosity learning much and developing wisdom thereby
practicing the true dharma at a later time however he loses faith which becomes unstable
he gives up keeping the precepts practicing generosity learning much and developing wisdom
these practices thus become unstable
what is the person who having surfaced remains standing here a person has surfaced by gaining
faith in the true dharma keeping the precepts practicing generosity learning much and developing
wisdom thereby practicing the true dharma at a later time his faith remains firm and
is not lost and is keeping of the precepts practice of generosity learning much and developing of
wisdom remains stable and firm and are not lost what is the person who having surfaced remains
standing and having remained standing observes here a person has surfaced by gaining faith in
the true dharma and we get all the rest of the description keeps precepts generosity learning
wisdom and they remain stable and are not lost now being established in the true dharma he knows
dukkha as it really is knows the arising of dukkha knows the cessation of dukkha and knows
the path to the cessation of dukkha as it really is through such knowing and seeing three fetters
are eliminated namely personality view clinging to precepts and doubt and through the cessation
of these three fetters he attains stream entry so this text introduces us to the first of the
four stages of awakening recognized in early buddhism and what marks this experience of
stream entry is that three conditions or states called fetters are gone forever
and these are the belief that there is a permanent self at the essence of existence
of experience these are clinging to precepts and observances in the sense that one believes
that the path to freedom is only possible by this particular way of acting and doing
it doesn't mean that one disregards the precept it just means that dogmatic adherence to them as the
soul way to liberation and doubt doubt in the sense of knowing what is wholesome and what is
unwholesome all these three are eradicated and we usually understand this as an expression of what
happens at the time when the streamendra attains for the first time in his or her life the experience
of nirvana that experience is such that it is incomparable to any other type of experience
and in particular that it is an experience where the I the I and me that usually is always there
in any other type of experience is gone so having had that experience the streamendra
knows for himself or herself that this this this this eye that there is no permanent
observer inside let me put it like this and with that experience also that that that deep sense of
doubt is gone there might still be doubt about like should I go left or right in order to get
to this and that place I mean we are not talking about these things we're just talking about this
essential doubt about what is important in life and what is really wholesome and meaningful and
what is unwholesome and not meaningful and the third is the clinging to precepts this idea
that just by following a certain outward form of behavior everything else will happen by itself
so such a stream interim is assured of progress towards full awakening within at most seven
existences without falling into evil states having passed through at most seven existences in heavenly
or human realms he will attain the ending of suffering so that was what we briefly mentioned
before about energy and effort a streamendra who makes a lot of effort can still get further
and even this life make an end but he or she according to early Buddhist doctrine will at
most experience another seven lives the experience of streaming he has had such a profound impact on
this person that during these seven lives sooner or later he or she will continue to progress
and become totally liberated
come to the next one is the person who having surfaced remains standing having remained
standing observes and having observed crosses over here person has surfaced by gaining faith
in the true dharma and again the passage we had above should be understood and through knowing
and seeing dukkha three fetters are eliminated namely personality view clinging to precepts and
doubt having eliminated these three fetters he also reduces sensual desire anger and ignorance
and attains once returning having passed through one existence in a heavenly or human realm he will
attain the ending of suffering this is the second stage of awakening recognized in early Buddhism
where the fetters of sensual desire and anger are being considerably reduced
and the Chinese version here also mentions ignorance
come to the third what is the person who having surfaced remains standing having
remains standing observes and having observed crosses over and having crossed over reaches the
father bank here a person has surfaced by gaining faith in the true dharma etc through such knowing
and seeing the five lower fetters are eliminated namely lustful desire ill will personality view
clinging to precepts and doubt with these five lower fetters eliminated he will be born in another
heavenly realm and there attain final nirvana having attained the condition of non-returning
not coming back to this world so whereas the previous person we mentioned still will return
one more time to be reborn in the world of sensuality which according to Buddhist cosmology
means the world of humans and of certain sensual heavenly realms you may remember the realm of the
33 that we discussed last time with that coral tree and that is also a ram within the sensual
world the gods there enjoy sensual pleasures but the non-returner will only be reborn in another
much higher heavenly realm in the brahma world completely beyond sensual desire
what is the person who having surfaced remains standing having remains standing observes
having observed crosses over having crossed over reaches the father bank
and having reached the father bank is called a brahmin dwelling on the father bank
here a person has surfaced by gaining faith in the true dharma etc through such knowing and
seeing he attains liberation of the mind from the taint of desire from the taint of becoming and
from the taint of ignorance being liberated he knows he's liberated he knows as it really is
birth is ended the holy life has been established what was to be done has been done there will not
be another existence this is the arahant the highest stage of awakening so when i said earlier
i shall teach you about seven persons in the water is was on account of this that i said it
this is what the buddhist said and having heard the buddhist words the monks were delighted and
remembered them well so the main points we get in this simile somebody is in the predicament of
being in the water and just remains lying submerged in the water is the person who is just immoral
and somebody is able to come out its surfaces but then sinks back again into the water and that is
somebody who for some time practices the dharma becomes established morality but then later on
gives it up again a backslider i call it somebody surface and remains standing as somebody who
keeps morality and then we come to the four stages of awakening the one who observes who has
seen the truth discourses speak of stream entry often as the arising of the eye of dharma the
dhamma chakra this is a stream entry someone crosses over the water is a once returner
which is the father bank is a non-returner and the arahant is called a brahmin dwelling on the
father bank yeah the reference to the brahmin is only in the identification of these in the
magyama agama not in the part i read to you before but it's also found in the Pali and brahmin here
stands for holy man not for a member of the caste
why does one lose faith and the next one doesn't while they both do the same practice the first
one practice must be lacking in well it is not the question of the practice i assume
but rather of one's commitment to it and of one's observance of the results and perhaps also
the influence of others i mean why do two people stop smoking and one starts again
to smoke there's a number of reasons one is the the the effort one self-discipline of that person
the other is being aware of the beneficial health results and a third one is if somebody has stopped
but all the friends around him or her keep smoking it becomes very difficult so i assume somebody who
gets himself or herself established in morality but is surrounded by people who continue
in all kind of indulgence it will be much more difficult to maintain that practice
the redefining of brahmin in that way as is frequently done must have been hard to swallow
for brahmins in a way yes but it seems there are different strands of brahmins we meet which in
the early discourses there are those apparently who uphold that birth in a particular lineage
or family means to be a brahmin but there are others who are quite receptive to this redefining
of the brahmin in the sense of inner mental qualities
but for some it must have been hard to swallow here
so there's one more comment coming i'll take that and then i think we have come to our end
so without achieving stream energy we can still sink when the conditions are gone
yes in a way you could put it like that but i mean if one really practices and observes one's
self and see how much one oneself is more happy and one is of more a source of happiness for others
then even without having attained a stream entry i believe there is relatively little chance to
sink again at least in the present life but obviously just as getting the fourth jhana
will make you understand exactly the issue about when somanasa and domanasa disappear so i assume
if it's possible to achieve stream entry that would be the best way to make sure that we will not
sink down again yeah that's it for today i thank you all for your attention and i hope that
i have not been too boring and one point or the other has been of some interest and
sometimes it gets a little technical there are some things that i
feel i should be touching on but then sometimes also it becomes practical and i hope you will
continue navigating with me between these two extremes through the middle course of the
magyama agama thank you very much for your attention and bye bye